Apologetics & Illness

[Paul of Tarsus]

Unless you live under a rock, then you're all aware that illness is a big factor in our lives. Even if you're very lucky and live free of illness, you probably know somebody who struggles with sickness. How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?

As far as I know, neither Jesus nor any of his apostles were ever said to be sick. None of them are described as blind, deaf, or lame. They did believe that various infirmities are caused by demons, and the cure was to cast the demons out. According to the gospel, these healing activities attracted great multitudes of people seeking delivery from their afflictions. So obviously illness was a major factor in the lives of those who were contemporaneous with Jesus.

One thing I've noticed about sickness is that it does not discriminate based on faith. It doesn't care what your beliefs are. That's why, for example, people gathering to worship is strongly discouraged due to the risk of Covid 19.

[John Bauer]

I have asked you to prove the Bible to be true and ethical but you have failed to.

No, I have refused. Huge difference. Failing to do something implies that one has at least tried, but I have straight-up refusedbecause the truth or falsehood of the Bible is irrelevant to your claim (that people do lots of good, as do lots of other organisms).

[Paul of Tarsus]

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #70]

think of the human condition not so much as being based in guilt but in our nature.

How are these ideals different?

Guilt implies blame for some wrong. "Nature" as I've used the word here refers to the fundamental traits of people. We humans tend to be defiant and foolish, and we can be fooled. Eve and Adam defied God and foolishly ate the fruit he told them not to eat. They were fooled into disobedience. Although we don't share their guilt for disobeying God and eating the fruit, we do share their defiance and foolishness. We did not sin by eating the fruit they ate, but we do sin in ways like they did.

Just like mice infest houses seeking food and shelter only to be exterminated, humans experience suffering and death for what our natures compel us to do and what our natures make us.

I don't think that an accurate analogy. The mice don't seek out the house to be exterminated or annoy people, they're trying to survive after being infected with an intruder (mankind). Humanity was condemned from the get-go by being set up for failure in the Garden by someone they can't directly control.

No living thing, be it mouse or man, can exist and act freely of its nature. That might seem unfair, but nature limits and forms all things. If we are not one thing, then we are another thing and act and exist accordingly. And although neither mice nor people are truly guilty for their natures, we still have those natures, and we may suffer as a result. A mouse might die in a trap, and a woman may die in a war. Although neither one is guilty, they die deaths that follow from their respective natures.

And humanity wasn't really "set up for failure in the Garden." God made us the way we are--warts and all. (Contrary to what many Christians say, God never made us perfect.) The way he made us resulted in our disobeying him. God evidently preferred people who can choose to obey him or disobey him over beings who must obey him.

So we really aren't being punished for what Eve and Adam did but suffer because we are like them.

Same end result so ultimately, the 'how we get there' doesn't matter IMO.

I think the reason for suffering makes a world of difference. If I must suffer, then I'd prefer to do so free of guilt knowing I did nothing wrong to deserve my suffering.

Fortunately, many Bible versions these days explain the "troublesome" issues with Mark 16.

Yet it's still there. God hasn't told anyone yet to absolutely remove it?
Again, seems like humanity is being played by a supreme being

I believe it's best to think of the Bible as a book written by people about God rather than a book written by God. People can and do make mistakes like those in the Bible, but a perfect God makes no mistakes. I think that God will find nobody guilty for discovering mistakes in the Bible.

[SeekerofTruth]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #111]

Suffering is the catalyst to change. Death is not the end so why fear it? As people we may seem intelligent but we are clearly not omniscient. How can we judge what is fair? Its about the end game. Is it fair for the weak to survive? If you garden at all you understand that when an unfruitful branch emerges (a sucker) you prune it. Humanity is one branch growing out of control with very little fruit. God did not cut the whole branch off because it serves Him partially. Look around, humans as a whole are the ones in contempt. The world is a garden planted by, and for the Gardener. He had workers (sons of God) who tended the garden but they abused it. The humanity tree has grown out of control and the suckers are destroying other plants. For the sake of what little fruit is produced, He has not cut down the whole tree. However there is a fire that will burn through this garden.Thats what the book of Revelations is about. He is taking some of the choice fruit and allowing the fire to consume the tree. When the fire has past he will replant the fruit. God did not plant the humanity tree to serve it and cater to its will. This is the error in your equation. If I was a shepherd and bought a sheepdog to herd the sheep and it started killing the sheep, am I evil to destroy the dog? If the dog ran away should I feel guilty if he starves to death or freezes to death. He had a home I provided and food I provided but it served a purpose. I leave this debate with this; of all the things God could have instructed His people to do, He chose love. He didnt say kill and conquer to those who follow Christ. When He was pruning the tree before Christ He did. We may not have survived this long if He didnt. He may allow the diseased branches to whither and some limbs to break but we cannot see the whole tree, just a very small section. As for me, I am thankful to the Gardener. Although at times I was burnt by the sun and cold by the snow, He did not let me wither. He watered me and sheltered me so in my thanks I will produce fruit for Him. That is my purpose.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #113]

Guilt implies blame for some wrong. "Nature" as I've used the word here refers to the fundamental traits of people.

The way I see it, it's our nature to blame others and feel guilt. Guilt is a powerful tool used in many churches because it's our nature to feel guilty, even with things we should have no guilt for.

No living thing, be it mouse or man, can exist and act freely of its nature.

Partially true. Human are unique in nature where we can try to live independent of some of our nature IMO. They don't always succeed, but trying shows it's possible in some sense.

And humanity wasn't really "set up for failure in the Garden."

I disagree 100%. God knew what was going to happen if he's all knowing like people claim. You can't be 'all knowing' but choose to 'not know' something past, present or future. If god is like this, Christians need to come up with another set of terminology other than 'all knowing' and that says 'know everything without limit'.
God also allowed Satan to tempt knowing (again with the all knowing feature) what would happen.
That, to me, is a set up.

I think the reason for suffering makes a world of difference.

Sure, but the end result is still the same in this situation: sin, which can lead to eternal death and suffering by some interpretations

I believe it's best to think of the Bible as a book written by people about God rather than a book written by God.

Agreed. But for many Christians, this isn't a possibility.

I think that God will find nobody guilty for discovering mistakes in the Bible.

I'd hope not. But there's no way to know this for sure, which is yet another reason why people don't trust the bible or Christianity.

[Tcg]

Death is not the end so why fear it?

There is no verifiable evidence that death is anything other than the end. Of course one of the primary functions of religion is death denial. The comfort death denial brings is not evidence that death is not final. It is a clue to help us understand the true nature and purpose of religious thought.


Tcg

[nobspeople]

[Replying to SeekerofTruth in post #114]

Suffering is the catalyst to change.

Curious as to why you said 'the' instead of 'a'? Are you saying suffering is the only way to or see change?

Death is not the end so why fear it?

Seems to be the case, according to many. But to others, it's not the case. To those 'others' you can see why fear materializes.

Is it fair for the weak to survive?

Aren't humans above the natural law of 'what's fair and what's not'? In other words, humans can change their overall lives, which seems to negate the attribute of ultimate fairness.

God did not cut the whole branch off because it serves Him partially.

Good to know we're nothing more than servants (slaves?) to him.

[brunumb]

Death is not the end so why fear it?

Please supply evidence, scientific rather than anecdotal, in support of your claim that death is not the end.

[brunumb]

And humanity wasn't really "set up for failure in the Garden."

You have to wonder at a couple of things. What was the purpose of the tree of knowledge of good and evil with its forbidden fruit? Why allow a cunning, seductive creature whose very thoughts you must be aware of into the garden? If it was not a deliberate set up then it certainly speaks of incompetence on the part of God.

[Compassionist]

I have asked you to prove the Bible to be true and ethical but you have failed to.

No, I have refused. Huge difference. Failing to do something implies that one has at least tried, but I have straight-up refusedbecause the truth or falsehood of the Bible is irrelevant to your claim (that people do lots of good, as do lots of other organisms).

"The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good." - Psalm 14:1, The Bible (New International Version). This verse is clearly false because there are lots of secular people who have done lots of good deeds and continue to do good deeds. The Bible is full of lots of other lies, too. If you choose to turn a blind eye to them that's up to you. Please see: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com and https://www.evilbible.com Thank you.

[Compassionist]

Death is not the end so why fear it?

There is no verifiable evidence that death is anything other than the end. Of course one of the primary functions of religion is death denial. The comfort death denial brings is not evidence that death is not final. It is a clue to help us understand the true nature and purpose of religious thought.


Tcg

I totally agree.