Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

[mms20102]

Across my Biblical studies in the old testament there is a chapter named Daniel and this chapter has some visions that's supposed to represent the future events to come and in most of the time those visions are represented in real Historic facts, in this post I would like to discuss the vision of Daniel 7 https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-Chapter-7/
So I will make 4 main points in this post:

1- The 4 beasts
2- The 10 horns
3- The small horn
4- The time after the small horn

First point is the 4 beasts no one will had different interpretation of the beasts other than the 4 empires, 1- Babylon 2- Persian 3- Greek 4- Roman

Second point is the 10 horns.

23-Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24-And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The Hakham Saadia Gaon said in his Book
The ten could be :
1- The greatest emperors.
2- The greatest fathers ( The earliest Emperors )
3- The greatest one of each family.
If we take any of the above conditions only 10 emperors will remain.

In my opinion they are the 10 emperors that conquered Jerusalem and killed both monotheists and Trinitarians and they are ten starting from Nero up to Diocletian 305 not just my humble opinion but also the opinion of many Christian theologians.

Now the small Horn

24 - and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The small horn here should be also an emperor from the Romans and after 10 emperors and he shall conquer three and say great things against God and will be different from those 10 and the one matching the vision is Constantine the Great.
Constantine the Great in 313 made the Edict of Milan which declared tolerance for Christianity in the Roman Empire, he began to favor Christianity beginning in 312, finally becoming a Christian and being baptised by either Eusebius of Nicomedia an Arian bishop or Pope Saint Sylvester which is maintained by the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great).
he eliminated 3 emperors

In his book History of Christian Church, Philip Schaff mentioned

With his every victory, over his pagan rivals, Galerius, Maxentius, and Licinius, his personal leaning to Christianity and his confidence in the magic power of the sign of the cross increased; yet he did not formally renounce heathenism, and did not receive baptism until, in 337, he was laid upon the bed of his death

(https://worthychristianbooks.com/histor ... an-empire/)

The very brightest period of his reign is stained with gross crimes, which even the spirit of the age and the policy of an absolute monarch cannot excuse. After having reached, upon the bloody path of war, the goal of his ambition, the sole possession of the empire, yea, in the very year in which he summoned the great council of Nicaea, he ordered the execution of his conquered rival and brother-in-law, Licinius, in breach of a solemn promise of mercy (324). Not satisfied with this, he caused soon afterwards, from political suspicion, the death of the young Licinius, his nephew, a boy of hardly eleven years. But the worst of all is the murder of his eldest son, Crispus, in 326

Also in their book (The Complete Book of When and Where) E. Michael Rusten · Sharon O. Rusten wrote

But there was a darker side to Constantine. In 326, he had his wife, the sister of Maxentius, and one son executed under suspicious circumstances. He also never relinquished his position as chief priest of the pagan state religion, and his coins proclaimed his allegiance to the sun god. He delayed Christian baptism until shortly before his death.

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... nstantine/

His conversion was not accompanied by a sharp break with his former paganism. Rather, a transition is discernible from the worship of the divine Sun to the service of the one true Christian God. When, in 321, he made the first day of the week a holiday, he described it as the day of the sun (but so do Christians today!).

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... rly-church

What Constantine did about Christmas further suggests he had Christianity in mind. Early Christians, of course, had no information that would help the, calculate the date of Christ's birth. The earliest evidence for the observance of December 25 as the birthday of Christ appears in the Philocalian Calendar, composed at Rome in 336. For many years this date was observed only in the west ; the eastern churchs observed Jan 6, Epiphany. Curiously, pagan holidays lay behind both of these dates. December 25 was the Natalis Soli Invicti, the birthday of the Unconquered Sun. Jan 6 was the feast of Dionysus.

so regarding the quotations above we can say for sure the small horn is Constantine the Great

Now before going to 4th point we need to highlight some points
1- His converting to Christianity was political issue
2- He eliminated monotheists and declared trinitarians
3- He was never baptized until his death
4- He killed many of his family members
5- He mixed Christianity and paganism
6- He killed anyone owned Arian books


Now we move to point 4, the point that Christians ,Muslims and other theologians have interpreted differently

He will speak words against the Most High [God] and wear down the saints of the Most High, and he will intend to change the times and the law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, [two] times, and half a time [three and one-half years].

https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-25.htm

we need to ask first who ended the Ruling of Constantine and his followers, and the answer is clear, Muslims ended the ruling of Constantine and his followers over Jerusalem ( Kingdom of God). Constantine and his followers reigned over Jerusalem from 305 up 636 means 331 years which is by lunar years 640 and which is almost 3.5 portions of time ( 1 portion = 100 years )

This post was nothing but a personal view to the vision.

Edit Important note: -
Main researcher ( Ahmed Spea )
The post is a modified English version of the main research.

[JehovahsWitness]

... the THE HARLOT IS DESTROYED WHEN THE 10 KINGS ARE CROWNED.

Prove it (chapter and verse)

[GoldenCup]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #110]

The ... sea beast has the crowns on the horns, ... [scarlet beast has no crowns]

You didn't addess the fact that the Harlot CANNOT POSSIBLY RIDE AN IMAGE OF THE SEA BEAST, because she's DESTROYED
WHEN THE 10 HORNS ARE CROWNED ON THE SEA BEAST.

This proves that the event when the Harlot rides the Scarlet beast FOR THE FIRST TIME, comes PRIOR to the CROWNING OF THE 10 HORNS ON THE SEA BEAST. Further proving that the scarlet beast is not an image, BUT ONE AND THE SAME AS THE SEA BEAST.

In case you still don't understand... How is the Harlot riding the IMAGE (SCARLET BEAST) that supposedly comes AFTER the Sea Beast, if SHE'S DESTROYED by the SEA BEAST W/TEN HORNS which supposedly comes PRIOR to the IMAGE? She's no longer in existence to ride the Image scarlet beast that supposedly comes AFTER the Sea Beast. Can you see the conundrum?

PROVE IT (CHAPTER AND VERSE)

Of course. Rev. 17:12-13, The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast. 13These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to connect the imagery of the HORNS BEING CROWNED on the sea beast, with the event of the 10 KINGS RECEIVING AUTHORITY AS KINGS WITH THE SEA BEAST.

Rev. 16:16-17, And the ten horns and the beast that you saw will hate the prostitute. They will leave her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by uniting to give their kingdom to the beast.

Rev. 13:1-2, Then I saw a beast with ten horns and seven heads rising out of the sea. THERE WERE TEN ROYAL CROWN ON ITS HORNS and blasphemous names on its heads. 2The beast I saw was like a leopard, with the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

So we clearly see the Sea Beast has its ten horns crowned, and the ten horns being crowned clearly represents they've received authority as Kings with the Sea Beast, and clearly the 10 Horns united with the sea beast are who destroy the Harlot, this proves that the Scarlet beast that the woman sits upon is NOT an image, but ONE & THE SAME as the Sea beast.

Rev. 17, Is showing us the event of when the Harlot sits on the Scarlet sea beast for the first time, PRIOR TO HER DESTRUCTION, and PRIOR to the horns being crowned NOT AFTER. This proves the Sea Beast of Rev. 13, and the Scarlet beast of Rev. 17, ARE ONE AND THE SAME!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #110]

The ... sea beast has the crowns on the horns, ... [scarlet beast has no crowns]

You didn't addess the fact that the Harlot CANNOT POSSIBLY RIDE AN IMAGE OF THE SEA BEAST, because she's DESTROYED WHEN THE 10 HORNS ARE CROWNED ...

The ten horns [of the scarlet beast] are never spoken of as being crowned.

PROVE IT (CHAPTER AND VERSE)

Of course. Rev. 17:12-13, The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast. 13These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast.

I see no mention of a crown. The are given "authority" as (like /similar to) kings, but they are not crowned as kings. I am not interested in your assumptions and conjecture. Provide me a passage that mentions the horns of the scarlet beast being Crowned.


Try again,


JW

[GoldenCup]

I see no mention of a crown. The are given "authority" as (like /similar to) kings, but they are not crowned as kings. I am not interested in your assumptions and conjecture. Provide me a passage that mentions the horns of the scarlet beast being Crowned.

Playing naive isn't going to help the fact that you're theory has been utterly refuted. Even if we understand it to mean "GIVEN AUTHORITY AS KINGS" and NOT "CROWNED."

Are you going to deny that the imagery of the Ten Horns having crowns on the Sea beast, represent the fact that the 10 Kings have been "given authority as Kings" with the Sea Beast? The same 10 Kings who AFTER they've received authority as Kings WITH the Beast, then destroy the Harlot?

I understand. You need to be dishonest with the plain and clear connection and deny this is EXACTLY what the 10 Horns having crowns represents; but since it completely destroys you're theory, you can't accept it.

Try again,
JW

Well you have fun being in denial and pretending you're theory hasn't been utterly refuted. Have a great day and thank you for taking the time to discuss bible prophecy.

GC

[JehovahsWitness]

ARE THE HORNS OF THE SCARLET BEAST EVER SPOKEN OF AS BEING CROWNED?

I see no mention of a crown. The are given "authority" as (like /similar to) kings, but they are not crowned as kings....

So we clearly see the Sea Beast has its ten horns crowned

Regarding the crowns on the SEA BEAST , that has already been addressed --> see post #105

There is no scripture or passage which speaks of the horns on the scarlet beast being "crowned".



JW

NOTE : For An OVERVIEW and rundown of the key players and events of REVELATION CHAPTERS 13 &17 see KEY: post --> # 129 )

[GoldenCup]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #115]

I still see no scripture her with the word "crowned" in it. Does that mean you cannot produce one?

No it just means you've now resorted to tap dancing and grasping at straws...

Rev. 13:1-2, Then I saw a beast with ten horns and seven heads rising out of the sea. THERE WERE TEN ROYAL CROWNS ON ITS HORNS.

Rev. 17:12-13, The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast.

My question to you is, does this imagery of the Ten horns having crowns in Rev. 13, NOT represent the 10 Kings "being given authority as Kings with the beast" in Rev. 17?

Of course it does and all bible scholars agree. So even if we apply the understanding that the horns are "GIVEN AUTHORITY AS KINGS" AND ARE NOT "CROWNED AS KINGS," it still makes no difference & still refutes your theory. So even conceding this point, it still doesn't help your case.

Regarding the crowns on the SEA BEAST , that has already been addressed --> see post #105

Are we deflecting? This in no way addresses the refutation of your theory. That the harlot CANNOT POSSIBLY ride an IMAGE scarlet Beast, because she's destroyed by the ten horns & the SEA BEAST, PROVING THAT THE SCARLET AND SEA BEAST ARE ONE & THE SAME. The vision of the harlot sitting on the scarlet beast in Rev. 17, happens PRIOR to the ten horns having crowns in Rev. 13:1-2, "Then I saw a beast with ten horns and seven heads rising out of the sea. THERE WERE TEN ROYAL CROWNS ON ITS HORNS."

There is no scripture or passage which speaks of the horns on the scarlet beast being "crowned".

I know. The passage that speaks of 10 horns having crowns is in regards to the Sea Beast found in Rev. 13; and when the horns receive their "authority as Kings" WITH the Sea beast in Rev. 17, they destroy the Harlot. The reason you don't see horns on the SCARLET BEAST in Rev. 17, is because the scene where she sits on the scarlet beast happens PRIOR to the horns being crowned on the Sea beast. PROVING that the scarlet beast ISN'T AN IMAGE that comes after the Sea beast, but is one and the same as the Sea beast. The Harlot NEVER SITS ON AN IMAGE OF THE BEAST, BUT ON THE SCARLET SEA BEAST.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #115]

I still see no scripture her with the word "crowned" in it. Does that mean you cannot produce one?

No ...

I was refering to the scarlet beast.


ARE THE HORNS OF THE SCARLET BEAST EVER SPOKEN OF AS BEING CROWNED?

I see no mention of a crown. The are given "authority" as (like /similar to) kings, but they are not crowned as kings....

So we clearly see the Sea Beast has its ten horns crowned

Regarding the crowns on the SEA BEAST , that has already been addressed --> see post #105

There is no scripture or passage which speaks of the horns on the scarlet beast being "crowned".

The reason you don't see [crowns] on the SCARLET BEAST in Rev. 17....

Nobody sees crowns on the scarlet beast (including YOU) .



JW

[GoldenCup]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #117]

There is no scripture or passage which speaks of the horns on the scarlet beast being "crowned".

Because the scarlet beast is the Sea Beast and the Harlot sits on it for the first time in Rev.17. That's why there's NO CROWNS ON HORNS. Then in Rev. 13, we now see the Crowns on the Horns symbolizing that the Kings have been given "Authority as Kings with the Sea beast" and it's ONLY THEN that the Harlot is destroyed. This proves that the Sea beast and scarlet beast are ONE AND THE SAME.

Please answer this question:

If the Harlot is DESTROYED by the 10 crowned Horns on the SEA BEAST, how is it she is seen riding the "image of the beast" which supposedly comes AFTER the Sea beast?

Therefore we must conclude that John is being given two visions of the same beast at different stages. The first stage: When the Harlot rides it for the first time. The 2nd stage: when the Harlot is destroyed by it and its ten Kings.

CONCLUSION: SEA BEAST & SCARLET BEAST ARE ONE & THE SAME.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #117]

There is no scripture or passage which speaks of the horns on the scarlet beast being "crowned".

Because the scarlet beast is the Sea Beast ....

So you admit there is no scripture or passage which speaks of the horns on the scarlet beast being "crowned" ... but you are attempting to explain why (thus the word .."because") my statement is TRUE.

Correct?

[GoldenCup]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #119]

please answer this question:
If the Harlot is DESTROYED by the 10 crowned Horns on the SEA BEAST, how is it she is seen riding the "image of the beast" which supposedly comes AFTER the Sea beast?