Is God evil?

[Compassionist]

There are many verses in the Bible about God's predestination. https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination Why would a good God predestine anyone to do evil? Surely, a good God would predestine all to do good? Does the existence of evil prove that God is evil? Surely, a good God would have made all living things to be autotrophs instead of making some autotrophs, some herbivores, some carnivores, some omnivores, and some parasites? Here are some examples of evil events which caused or are causing suffering, deaths, and injustices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll
https://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #116

I can see where empathy would provide for closer bonds between kin, clans, tribes and such up the ladder to all humans. We could reasonably say it's "selfish" that we're more likely to help those genetically closest to us.

But we're not limited to helping those genetically close to us. We're certainly not being selfish when we overcome our selfishness.

I think we're agreeing to the same idea, but from two different perspectives.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #115]

I have already said that I am an Agnostic Atheist as I can't decide whether God is evil and imaginary or evil and real.

That is neither an Atheistic or an Agnostic position as you have only allowed for GOD to either be an imagined thing which is evil, or a real thing which is evil. Even mixing the two positions together would not give the conclusion you have already decided upon, which is that God, whether existing of not, would be evil.

Although, I am leaning towards God being evil and imaginary.

Lean away - the bias is obvious that you think of the idea of GOD as being evil. The hope is that the evil GOD does not exist, as it will be one less thing to have to deal with.

I have accepted that you are an Agnostic Neutral.

Can you say what the difference between your position and mine might be?

The reason I consider God to be evil is because of all the harm God failed to prevent in the universe we live in. Also, the Bible is full of atrocities committed by God and his followers. Just as the Harry Potter books are full of atrocities committed by Voldemort and his followers. So, if the Bible is true, God is real and evil. If the Bible is false, then God is imaginary and evil in the same way Voldemort is imaginary and evil.

You seem to think God could be real and good despite all the suffering, injustice, and deaths. I don't think God could be real and good given all the suffering, injustice, and deaths.

[Compassionist]

I know what I know for sure: I exist and I can't do an infinite number of things that I really want to do and I am constantly doing things I don't want to do. Therefore, I don't have free will.

Ill try to get at your (unintended) equivocation on "free will" another way. You sound like you are talking about free doing, not free willing. Free will, as non-determinists are talking about, is not about the ability to do all and only what we want to do. Its about having freedom over the choices we make within our limitations. That is what you need to show we dont have freedom over to show determinism to be true.

You may think limited free will is an oxymoron, but why do you think "free" means "completely free" versus "free in some senses but not all"? If its just a problem of terms, come up with what term you want us to use so that we can talk about the actual point of difference between determinists and non-determinists. Without that, you are presenting a false dilemma.

This is a subjective truth because I don't have any way to know any objective truth.

Is this statement objectively true? If so, then it is self-defeating. If not, then we dont have a reason to believe we dont have any way to know any objective truth.

How could I possibly know any objective truth given that all of my awareness (sight, smell, taste, hearing, touch, proprioception) is subjective? My perceptions could be illusions. I could be living in a simulation created by sadistic aliens who are experimenting on me. Perhaps you are such an alien. How would I know for sure?

Im not talking about knowing for sure, but about what is most reasonable to believe. You are, too. You dont know determinism is true, but think its the most reasonable position to take.

I only blame beings who actually have free will. I don't blame anyone who does not have free will. I clearly don't have free will. I would have to be all-knowing and all-powerful to have free will. If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, then, God has free will and is therefore blameworthy.

You do not have to be all-knowing and all-powerful to have free will in the way non-determinists mean free will. You just have to have control over the choices available to you to try to act on, within the limitations you have.

I have said God is blameworthy for the choices He makes. He is not blameworthy for the choices other beings with free will make.

I experience "willing the good of another" but I can't implement my will because my will is not free from limitations.

If determinism is true, then Im not sure you experience willing the good of another because Im not sure there is even a "you"; "you" are simply a collection of molecules that goes through a series of experiences with the illusion of a self and the illusion of some self making choices.

But even if there is a real you, within determinism, you arent willing anything; you are simply dancing to your DNA with the illusion of willing the good of another.

Why would a real and good God put up with a Bible that represents him falsely?

To allow people free will.

The two creation accounts in the Bible do not match what we know from the scientific method i.e. the universe came into being 13.82 billion years ago through a Big Bang, there was a cosmic inflation, stars formed, galaxies formed, our Sun formed 4.6 billion years ago, our Earth formed 4.5 billion years ago, our Moon formed when a Mars-sized planet collided with the Earth, life evolved on Earth 3.7 billion years ago, etc.

I agree they dont match. I think thats because the Bible isnt addressing those questions. It doesnt talk about how the world scientifically came about. Its a narrative that is speaking about God bringing order to chaos and the purpose He has for humans that distinguished Him from other worldviews about God(s) going around in that area of the world. As such, these accounts do not contradict what science is teaching us about the physical processes that played themselves out. They are perfectly compatible.

You claimed that "God ... brings objectivity through the purpose of creation." I disagree. It doesn't make any sense at all. How can a being bring objectivity?

Something is "good" for a certain purpose. Studying the many years it takes to become a doctor is good for those who want to be doctors; its not good for becoming a construction worker. Gods creation would have followed whatever purpose(s) God had in creating it. He would have designed humans in a way to fulfill that purpose. That design/desire, gives humans an objective purpose and, therefore, an objective good.

How, in your view, is what you think of as "suffering" and "harm" anything more than akin to an ice cream flavor you dont like?

My definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. I have never met anyone with free will.

My definition of constrained will: A will that is constrained and is determined by variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Biological organisms have constrained will.

I am using the above definitions. You are using different definitions. I think that's why we disagree.

I know what I know for sure: I exist and I can't do an infinite number of things that I really want to do and I am constantly doing things I don't want to do. Therefore, I don't have free will. This is a subjective truth because I don't have any way to know any objective truth. How could I possibly know any objective truth given that all of my awareness (sight, smell, taste, hearing, touch, proprioception) is subjective? My perceptions could be illusions. I could be living in a simulation created by sadistic aliens who are experimenting on me. Perhaps you are such an alien. How would I know for sure? I only blame beings who actually have free will. I don't blame anyone who does not have free will. I clearly don't have free will. I would have to be all-knowing and all-powerful to have free will. If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, then, God has free will and is therefore blameworthy.

My statement: "I don't have any way to know any objective truth." is itself a subjective truth because I don't have any way to know any objective truths.

"All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work." - 2 Timothy 3:16-17, The Bible (New Living Translation). Therefore, I expect the two creation accounts in Genesis to be 100% accurate and should match what we discovered through the scientific method.

I have met Christians who believe that we are immortal souls who have free will and we freely choose everything we say and do. I am not convinced this is an accurate view.

I think our sense of self is an emergent property of the activities of the brain. This brain is not outside the deterministic reality we live in, it is part of it. Genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences determine how the brain functions.

I would love to be 100% certain about what is real and what is not real but I can't be. It's possible that genes, environments, and nutrients don't actually exist and these are mere illusions or simulations. It's possible that my body, other organisms, the Earth, the Sun, the rest of the solar system, all the galaxies, and the Universe are all simulations or illusions. The only thing I am certain of is my experience of being me. Is solipsism true? I don't know and can't know.

"Good" and "evil" are words that people use to communicate meanings. These are not absolute truths. These are subjective truths. Vegans consider non-vegans evil. Non-vegans consider vegans to be misguided. Who is right? Who knows? How can we know for sure? I don't know.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #114

At least 99.61% of the 8 billion humans currently alive are not even vegan. They murder and rape sentient organisms every second. Where did you get giving selflessly from?

Yes, some of us donate to others but that is not selfless. For example, I have donated blood, food, clothes, toys, money, etc. many many times. I share 99.9% of my genes with the people I donated to. So, by helping them I am helping their genes, which are in fact copies of my genes. Even when I help other species, they have copies of most of my genes e.g. I share 98.8% of my genes with chimps, 80% of my genes with cows, 90% of my genes with cats, 82% of my genes with dogs, etc.

There are those who choose to help those with the same genes and those who choose not to. Interpreting altruism as roundabout selfishness is a confirmation bias.

Since you claimed that you are not limited by your experiences, I request that you become fluent in all the languages you don't currently know without ever experiencing them through reading and hearing. If you have free will, you should be able to learn them without having to experience them through listening or reading.

That omnipotence is required for freedom of choice is a childish argument. I haven't had the experience to know every language, but I don't need the experience of someone's life in order to make their life better.

No, it's not confirmation bias. It's maths. All organisms serve the genes they carry. If you had the genes of a virus, instead of the genes of a human, you would not be able to do any of the things humans do. If I sacrifice my life to save two humans then I have saved 2 x 99.9% of my genes which is almost twice the number of my own genes. If I sacrifice my life to save 8 billion humans then I have saved 8 billion x 99.9% of my genes which is almost 8 billion times the number of my own genes. In "Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan", Spock said, "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." This is why we give posthumous medals to people who sacrificed their lives to save the lives of others. This is why some mummy spiders let themselves be eaten by her children.

I didn't state that you need to experience someone's life to make their life better. Where did you get that from?

You can label my arguments in pejorative terms but that doesn't make your labels true. The truth is the truth. Unfortunately, I don't have any way to know all the truths without being all-knowing.

My definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. I have never met anyone with free will.

My definition of constrained will: A will that is constrained and is determined by variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Biological organisms have constrained will.

What are your definitions of free will and constrained will? My definitions are the most accurate definitions I am aware of. If you think your definitions are more accurate than mine, please prove that.

[The Tanager]

My definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. I have never met anyone with free will.

My definition of constrained will: A will that is constrained and is determined by variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Biological organisms have constrained will.

I am using the above definitions. You are using different definitions. I think that's why we disagree.

I agree we are using different definitions. I know of no one who says they believe in free will that uses your definition of free will. That isnt "free will" in the sense of the traditional determinism vs. free will debate. Thats fine, I just thought you were speaking of determinism in that context.

"All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work." - 2 Timothy 3:16-17, The Bible (New Living Translation). Therefore, I expect the two creation accounts in Genesis to be 100% accurate and should match what we discovered through the scientific method.

This verse speaks of all scripture being true to teach us what is true, but this is in the context of what the text is addressing. The accounts in Genesis are not addressing the scientific processes that bring the world about.

I have met Christians who believe that we are immortal souls who have free will and we freely choose everything we say and do. I am not convinced this is an accurate view.

I dont think its accurate, either.

I think our sense of self is an emergent property of the activities of the brain. This brain is not outside the deterministic reality we live in, it is part of it. Genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences determine how the brain functions.

An emergent property as opposed to an emergent illusion or that we have the property of experiencing this illusion?

"Good" and "evil" are words that people use to communicate meanings. These are not absolute truths. These are subjective truths. Vegans consider non-vegans evil. Non-vegans consider vegans to be misguided. Who is right? Who knows? How can we know for sure? I don't know.

I mean this question honestly, not in any flippant way. I dont get why you are complaining about suffering, injustice, death and not complaining about people eating foods you dislike. Whats the difference, if your worldview is true?

[Compassionist]

My definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. I have never met anyone with free will.

My definition of constrained will: A will that is constrained and is determined by variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Biological organisms have constrained will.

I am using the above definitions. You are using different definitions. I think that's why we disagree.

I agree we are using different definitions. I know of no one who says they believe in free will that uses your definition of free will. That isnt "free will" in the sense of the traditional determinism vs. free will debate. Thats fine, I just thought you were speaking of determinism in that context.

"All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work." - 2 Timothy 3:16-17, The Bible (New Living Translation). Therefore, I expect the two creation accounts in Genesis to be 100% accurate and should match what we discovered through the scientific method.

This verse speaks of all scripture being true to teach us what is true, but this is in the context of what the text is addressing. The accounts in Genesis are not addressing the scientific processes that bring the world about.

I have met Christians who believe that we are immortal souls who have free will and we freely choose everything we say and do. I am not convinced this is an accurate view.

I dont think its accurate, either.

I think our sense of self is an emergent property of the activities of the brain. This brain is not outside the deterministic reality we live in, it is part of it. Genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences determine how the brain functions.

An emergent property as opposed to an emergent illusion or that we have the property of experiencing this illusion?

"Good" and "evil" are words that people use to communicate meanings. These are not absolute truths. These are subjective truths. Vegans consider non-vegans evil. Non-vegans consider vegans to be misguided. Who is right? Who knows? How can we know for sure? I don't know.

I mean this question honestly, not in any flippant way. I dont get why you are complaining about suffering, injustice, death and not complaining about people eating foods you dislike. Whats the difference, if your worldview is true?

I don't know the answers to the questions you have asked. I wish I did. I am a vegan but I don't want to be a vegan. I want to be an autotroph. If I had free will, I would be an autotroph. It pains me that non-vegans cause so much suffering and death to sentient organisms. Please see https://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter I am upset about all the suffering, injustice, and deaths. That's why I am complaining. I remember my fourth birthday party. I was not a vegan then. I was blissfully ignorant of the suffering and death that paved the way to the meat on my plate. Ignorance is bliss. Knowledge is pain. Back then, I didn't know about any of the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll

I almost died by drowning when I was four years old. My cousins saved me. I wish I had died. I am suffering constantly. I think about suicide every few seconds.

Life as I know it
Might is right,
Adapt or die.
The world works thus.
The evil prospers,
The innocent perishes.
Doomed we are,
To suffer,
And to die.

[William]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #122]

You seem to think God could be real and good despite all the suffering, injustice, and deaths.

Correct.

I don't think God could be real and good given all the suffering, injustice, and deaths.

Correct.

Therefore, we disagree and my position [Agnostic Neutral] explains why we disagree, and your position [Agnostic Atheist] has nothing to do with why we disagree - as far as I can tell -.

If the world was only pain and suffering and injustice I could well agree with your belief that GOD - real or imagined - would have to be evil.

Death itself may be the deciding factor for you, in that perhaps you see death as the greatest injustice of all?
But if the world was only pain and suffering and injustice, then death would be a kindness, so I don't think death belongs on your list of negatives.

So my position has me answering the question "Is GOD Evil" to being "No, given the evidence that good also exists, it is not logical that any GOD real or imagined which created this universe, could be evil."

[The Tanager]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #126]

I hope I didnt come across with any rudeness, especially in my remark about complaining. I certainly didnt mean it to be so. At times I wish I was a vegan. I dont think its evil to be a non-vegan, definitely not in theory, but I wonder at times if our society has made it practically evil to be a non-vegan. I justify staying non-vegan to myself, even at times based on a feeling like I couldnt afford for our family to be healthy on a vegan diet, but maybe its just more about my comfort and this is something God is trying to get a hold of me on.

I think you being upset about suffering, injustice, and deaths is how more people should be. I just think it only makes good sense if theism is true. I think God is not happy with all the chaos we bring to the world, but that the alternative (a world without us as free will beings and, therefore, the love we can share with each other and God) is worse.

I have never had suicidal thoughts, but I can definitely understand things like you speak of (and many others) leading people there. I hope you have great professional and family/friend help available and accessible to you to help you gain wisdom in that struggle. I also want to say that I think this would be a lesser world without you and your heart for the suffering here. I think its a part of the image of God in you. Im praying for wisdom and peace for you, if youll allow me.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #122]

You seem to think God could be real and good despite all the suffering, injustice, and deaths.

Correct.

I don't think God could be real and good given all the suffering, injustice, and deaths.

Correct.

Therefore, we disagree and my position [Agnostic Neutral] explains why we disagree, and your position [Agnostic Atheist] has nothing to do with why we disagree - as far as I can tell -.

If the world was only pain and suffering and injustice I could well agree with your belief that GOD - real or imagined - would have to be evil.

Death itself may be the deciding factor for you, in that perhaps you see death as the greatest injustice of all?
But if the world was only pain and suffering and injustice, then death would be a kindness, so I don't think death belongs on your list of negatives.

So my position has me answering the question "Is GOD Evil" to being "No, given the evidence that good also exists, it is not logical that any GOD real or imagined which created this universe, could be evil."

I never said that suffering is the only thing that exists in the world. There is a lot of suffering in the world but there is also enjoyment - these are not distributed in equal measures among all living things. I agree that if suffering is the only thing that existed, then death would be a relief from the constant suffering. However, if Hell is real and non-Christians go there forever, then death is simply the beginning of eternal torture.

I understand your position even though I don't share your position.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #126]

I hope I didnt come across with any rudeness, especially in my remark about complaining. I certainly didnt mean it to be so. At times I wish I was a vegan. I dont think its evil to be a non-vegan, definitely not in theory, but I wonder at times if our society has made it practically evil to be a non-vegan. I justify staying non-vegan to myself, even at times based on a feeling like I couldnt afford for our family to be healthy on a vegan diet, but maybe its just more about my comfort and this is something God is trying to get a hold of me on.

I think you being upset about suffering, injustice, and deaths is how more people should be. I just think it only makes good sense if theism is true. I think God is not happy with all the chaos we bring to the world, but that the alternative (a world without us as free will beings and, therefore, the love we can share with each other and God) is worse.

I have never had suicidal thoughts, but I can definitely understand things like you speak of (and many others) leading people there. I hope you have great professional and family/friend help available and accessible to you to help you gain wisdom in that struggle. I also want to say that I think this would be a lesser world without you and your heart for the suffering here. I think its a part of the image of God in you. Im praying for wisdom and peace for you, if youll allow me.

Thank you ever so much for your prayers and kind wishes. You did not come across as rude or flippant. I appreciate all of your thoughtful replies even though we have different ideas.

If you want to learn more about veganism please see https://www.carnismdebunked.com

I used to be a devout Christian, so I totally understand how you feel. Without religion, life's a bitch, then we die. With some religions (e.g. Christianity and Islam), life's a bitch, then we go to heaven forever if we follow the right religion. With some other religions (e.g. Hinduism and Jainism), life's a bitch, then we get a better reincarnation if we earn good karma. I am not going to burden you with all the details of my painful life. I am pleased that you have never had suicidal thoughts. I hope you are happy.