What's the Point of Prayer?

[POI]

In regards to the following verses -- Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23....

What do they really mean? I've debated many theists, and get a whole mess of conflicting answers. It will likely be no surprise if that continues here. After some thought, here are some findings...

1. All prayer is pointless, as any "answered prayer" would merely mean, <at best>, that it already aligned with God's will. Why? Because you cannot make God change His will. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

2. Ignore the above! God answers all prayer with a (yes, no, or later). His answer, of course, would be "no" if you are asking God to commit a 'sin.' But if this option is the case, I guess he will always say no to the requests of restoring lost limbs, reversing cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome. Why? Because they will die with these conditions, which means they remained unfulfilled until natural death. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above, as there really exists no such caveats....?

3. Ignore choices 1. and 2.! Prayer is only meant for giving thanks, other. God is not a slot machine! But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

I'm sure there exists a plethora of other explanations........ You get the gist....

For Debate:

What is the point of prayer? I guess we can start here, and see where this goes....

[Hawkins]

Communication

I will need a little elaboration here...

Is it two way communication?
How do you know?
What does this communication entail exactly?
Do you ask for anything in this communication?
Does he ever grant what you ask?
How do you know?

It is usually the only way for someone not only to communicate with God, but also to establish a relationship.

Roughly speaking, it forms a pattern to an individual such that the subconsciousness of that person can recognize to believe and to strengthen his/her faith at the same time.

God does it this way because a usual communication is under the constrain that one relies on his faith to be saved. That is, the communication will has the effect of strengthening his belief by faith. Another way of communication is the type how God communicates with His chosen witnesses which are referred to as the OT prophets.

I do not pray or have to pray to communicate with the living God.
I am one with Him at all times.

Well, if you don't pray at all, you are not a Christian! Even Jesus says a prayer!

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #137]

No - you have to make a logical and evidence -based case or you lose.

I lose what exactly? Your cheerleading that you think I won? I am only concerned here with offering answers that I know some future people will look at and go, hey, that makes more since than the atheists make. Even if I only get one person to think that, then I won, if winning means anything.

An old apologetic, but still valid apart from being a logical fallacy. Because we once didn't know how instinct worked ad some did indeed ascribe it to 'God'. It is getting pretty thin to use cancer remission as evidence for a god that answers prayer, especially as (of course - the old problem) sometimes He doesn't ("God knows best").

Nice strawman. Do you honestly think that is my position? Maybe you could steelman my position to see if we are even on the same page because I can tell you for sure you are misrepresenting my position.

I am not using cancer remissions as evidence that God does in fact answer prayers. My argument is...

1. There are diseases that have not been successfully treated by doctors.
2. There are cases of people with said disease that have recovered.
3. These same people happened to pray to God to get better.
4. Possibly, God answered their prayers.
5. Because it is possible that God answered their prayers, it is reasonable for them to believe God answered their prayers.
6. Therefore, prayers are not necessarily pointless.

That is just one of the arguments I have stated. Here is another.

1. It is possible that God exists. (Arguments for God)
2. If God exists, it is possible that prayers benefit the person in some way. (Such as feeling peace or helping them control their anger)
3. If they derive any benefit at all from prayer, then prayer is not pointless.
4. Some do derive benefits from prayer.
5. Therefore, prayer is not pointless.


And actually, here is another one. Edited to add this.

If prayer offers any benefit, then prayer is not pointless.
Prayer offers benefits to some people
therefore, prayer is not pointless.

You lose the debate or discussion, because you can't make a valid case. Your line has always been to make Faithclaims backd up by various apologetics and when they fail, seem to push the view that if we don't convince you, we lose. Logically you are the one that has to make the case. ,

And it seems to me that i was presenting your position regarding cancer - remission correctly. That, as an example of inexplicable healings, as an unknown and unexplained phenomenon. I already explained why relating this to prayers is no valid evidence. I would assume, and I have heard, that this sort of thing happens without prayer, and that it doesn't regularly happen with prayer as it would at least be a known effect with a subject of study if that were the case. So argument from cancer remission is no evidence and only someone with Godfaith looking to prop the faith up would think it was. I'd say I had you bang to rights, there.

You then switch to the vague personal feelgood as a validation of prayer. To adopt a rather axiomatic repose, getting sloshed on bargain Merlot makes the fellow feel good, so that has a point, too. But that is not a good argument as 'Atheism has made such a difference to my life' and I reckon there is as much point on my NOT praying, trying to make ramshackle apologetics work and maintaining faith when the evidence for it is falling short, quite aside from which, other religions with Faith and prayer gives the same effect, so Christianity gets you nothing, and before you say it, there is no point in praying to Deistgod that you couldn't get in praying to your garden gnome. If it makes you feel good, fine, but don't think that you can sell that to us as a piece of evidence for the validity of Godfaith or validation of prayer.

Non edit. You would have done better to have left your addition off. It just repeats your erlrier argument but exposes the shallowness of the Faithbased self delusion of it even more. So, rather than comment on that I'll pick up an argument I saw that the believer is in contact with God at all times.

The repose was that this is nothing like prayer as per the Bible, where Jesus is shown as praying to God the Father. I won't wrestle with the theology there, but rather say that the claim we not infrequently get that the believer has Jesus in their head all the time, reflects what I say about Godfaith - it is the ego of the believer, inflated to cosmic level. Sure, they slap a holy Icon (choose your own) on it, but that's what it is.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #142]

I noticed you ignored my arguments. Are you going to try to show how they are either invalid or unsound or both?

1. There are diseases that have not been successfully treated by doctors.
2. There are cases of people with said disease that have recovered.
3. These same people happened to pray to God to get better.
4. Possibly, God answered their prayers.
5. Because it is possible that God answered their prayers, it is reasonable for them to believe God answered their prayers.
6. Therefore, prayers are not necessarily pointless.

That is just one of the arguments I have stated. Here is another.

1. It is possible that God exists. (Arguments for God)
2. If God exists, it is possible that prayers benefit the person in some way. (Such as feeling peace or helping them control their anger)
3. If they derive any benefit at all from prayer, then prayer is not pointless.
4. Some do derive benefits from prayer.
5. Therefore, prayer is not pointless.


And actually, here is another one. Edited to add this.

If prayer offers any benefit, then prayer is not pointless.
Prayer offers benefits to some people
therefore, prayer is not pointless.

[OneWay]

Communication

I will need a little elaboration here...

Is it two way communication?
How do you know?
What does this communication entail exactly?
Do you ask for anything in this communication?
Does he ever grant what you ask?
How do you know?

It is usually the only way for someone not only to communicate with God, but also to establish a relationship.

Roughly speaking, it forms a pattern to an individual such that the subconsciousness of that person can recognize to believe and to strengthen his/her faith at the same time.

God does it this way because a usual communication is under the constrain that one relies on his faith to be saved. That is, the communication will has the effect of strengthening his belief by faith. Another way of communication is the type how God communicates with His chosen witnesses which are referred to as the OT prophets.

I do not pray or have to pray to communicate with the living God.
I am one with Him at all times.

Well, if you don't pray at all, you are not a Christian! Even Jesus says a prayer!

Jesus was not a Christian, and I am not Jesus.
You do not know Jesus.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #143]

answered in #142 above. Gap for God/Appeal to unknowns (unexplained healings) - invalid argument/logical fallacy, in case you were wondering

Feelgood, is not really the 'point' of prayer (not according to the Gospels, anyway) and is of dubious value and not exclusive to religion. So it isn't really a good backup to the falllacy of unexplained healings.

[brunumb]

And it seems to me that i was presenting your position regarding cancer - remission correctly. That, as an example of inexplicable healings, as an unknown and unexplained phenomenon. I already explained why relating this to prayers is no valid evidence. I would assume, and I have heard, that this sort of thing happens without prayer, and that it doesn't regularly happen with prayer as it would at least be a known effect with a subject of study if that were the case. So argument from cancer remission is no evidence and only someone with Godfaith looking to prop the faith up would think it was. I'd say I had you bang to rights, there.

Yes. How often do you get someone excitedly proclaiming "I didn't pray to God and my cancer went into remission"? It's all a case of acknowledging the few hits and ignoring the multitude of misses.

[brunumb]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #142]

I noticed you ignored my arguments. Are you going to try to show how they are either invalid or unsound or both?

1. There are diseases that have not been successfully treated by doctors.
2. There are cases of people with said disease that have recovered.
3. These same people happened to pray to God to get better.
4. Possibly, God answered their prayers.
5. Because it is possible that God answered their prayers, it is reasonable for them to believe God answered their prayers.
6. Therefore, prayers are not necessarily pointless.

It just puts prayer in the same category as rubbing a rabbit's foot for good luck.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #145]

Yeah, none of that is showing how my arguments are invalid or unsound. For example, let's go with this one. Does the conclusion follow the premises? Do you recognize the form of this argument, which is a valid form?

If the conclusion is unsound, explain how so.

If prayer offers any benefit to some people, then prayer is not pointless for those people.
Prayer offers benefits to some people
therefore, prayer is not pointless to those people.

Are the premises unsound? It doesn't seem so, but maybe you can point out how they are.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #142]

I noticed you ignored my arguments. Are you going to try to show how they are either invalid or unsound or both?

1. There are diseases that have not been successfully treated by doctors.
2. There are cases of people with said disease that have recovered.
3. These same people happened to pray to God to get better.
4. Possibly, God answered their prayers.
5. Because it is possible that God answered their prayers, it is reasonable for them to believe God answered their prayers.
6. Therefore, prayers are not necessarily pointless.

It just puts prayer in the same category as rubbing a rabbit's foot for good luck.

Can you explain how possibly a rabbit's foot in principle would be the cause of their healing?

[brunumb]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #142]

I noticed you ignored my arguments. Are you going to try to show how they are either invalid or unsound or both?

1. There are diseases that have not been successfully treated by doctors.
2. There are cases of people with said disease that have recovered.
3. These same people happened to pray to God to get better.
4. Possibly, God answered their prayers.
5. Because it is possible that God answered their prayers, it is reasonable for them to believe God answered their prayers.
6. Therefore, prayers are not necessarily pointless.

It just puts prayer in the same category as rubbing a rabbit's foot for good luck.

Can you explain how possibly a rabbit's foot in principle would be the cause of their healing?

Just apply all the reasoning you used to credit it to your God. It works in exactly the same way.