Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

[POI]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

[POI]

So then, what isn't based on faith or trust?

I figured it was only a matter of time before we landed here....

Would you agree there exists differing types of 'faith'? Meaning, you can have: Blind faith - by adopting and/or accepting a claim or assertion without virtually any inquiry at all.

If everything is based on faith/trust as Inquirer suggests, then there is a need for a spectrum on which to place any claim. At one extreme we have fully justified faith/trust that the claim is true while at the the other end we have totally unjustified faith/trust that the claim is true. The scientific method helps us place observed phenomena and explanatory theories on that spectrum with a fair degree of confidence. I wonder how religious claims fare.

Right! And once you provide your degree of faith, meaning, 'my faith went from 40% to 50% in X', we are no longer talking about 'faith' -- per se. We are instead talking about degrees of certainty, which is really no longer 'faith' - unless 'faith' is a very loose umbrella term, which almost renders the word meaningless, as it is no longer well-defined.

Inquirer apparently likes to throw around terms, like 'faith' and 'know', as if there is just one kind. Faith, not only can have a spectrum, as you suggest, but can be used in all kinds of contexts. I think he's hoping the mere mention of these terms will throw off the scent

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #156]

When you study the Bible it sometimes feels impossible to read a paragraph in the new testament that doesnt rely on knowing the old testament.

Anyway the history of the Jews is proof of God.

Then the history of the Neanderthals is proof of Bigfoot.

[Tcg]

Anyway the history of the Jews is proof of God.

The history of the Jews is proof that God died in 1933.

Aren't bald assertions fun? They allow one to make up anything we want.


Tcg

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #164]

Here's some more:


The history of the Jews is proof that Hitler is (yes, present tense) more powerful than God.

The history of the Jews is proof that Jesus wasn't (yes, past tense) God.

The history of the Jews is proof that Christians go to church on the wrong day.

The history of the Jews is proof that Christians should go to temple and not church.

The history of the Jews is proof that God didn't inspire the books of the N.T.

The history of the Jews is proof that God doesn't exist.


We could go on and on. These bald assertions carry as much weight as any others.


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

So then, what isn't based on faith or trust?

I figured it was only a matter of time before we landed here....

Would you agree there exists differing types of 'faith'? Meaning, you can have: Blind faith - by adopting and/or accepting a claim or assertion without virtually any inquiry at all.

If everything is based on faith/trust as Inquirer suggests, then there is a need for a spectrum on which to place any claim. At one extreme we have fully justified faith/trust that the claim is true while at the the other end we have totally unjustified faith/trust that the claim is true. The scientific method helps us place observed phenomena and explanatory theories on that spectrum with a fair degree of confidence. I wonder how religious claims fare.

Right! And once you provide your degree of faith, meaning, 'my faith went from 40% to 50% in X', we are no longer talking about 'faith' -- per se. We are instead talking about degrees of certainty, which is really no longer 'faith' - unless 'faith' is a very loose umbrella term, which almost renders the word meaningless, as it is no longer well-defined.

Inquirer apparently likes to throw around terms, like 'faith' and 'know', as if there is just one kind. Faith, not only can have a spectrum, as you suggest, but can be used in all kinds of contexts. I think he's hoping the mere mention of these terms will throw off the scent

He was on the right lines. There are many kinds of Faith (Blind Faith and Faith in the validity of science obviously) and a spectrum of validity of such Faith, based on the supporting evidence. I'm not going to try to guess what the argument was there, but it was a valid remark so far as it went.

Anyway the history of the Jews is proof of God.

The history of the Jews is proof that God died in 1933.

Aren't bald assertions fun? They allow one to make up anything we want.


Tcg

We can always ask: "Why is it?" Then we might get a claim that we should take everything the Bible says on trust, without question, or more likely 'History' refer to the old apologetic that the survival of the Jews (despite everything) proves that God is looking out for them. The question there is, God turned His back on them and shifted his support to the gentiles, and yet the Jews still survive. Clearly their survival does not prove a god.

[JoeyKnothead]

Anyway the history of the Jews is proof of God.

The history of the Jews is proof that God died in 1933.

Aren't bald assertions fun? They allow one to make up anything we want.


Tcg

TCG once asked a woman her age.

How'm I doing?

[POI]

165+ posts in, I continue to be excluded from the list of millions/billions, who claim the Christian God works directly in their lives. I am now pleading with theists here to merely demonstrate His existence. Nothing more. I do not feel my request is unreasonable, as I tried, on my own, for decades, to ask Him to reveal Himself to me in a way for which I will no further doubt His very existence. Well, As I continue to wait, please enjoy this oldie-but-goodie video. And yes, I know it's a 'gish-gallop' of claims... Some worthy of discussion, and maybe others not-so-much? However, I find the cumulative affect of all these points to be compelling -- for the theist to ponder. Feel free to use it as a catalyst to launch many new topics

[brunumb]

Well, As I continue to wait, please enjoy this oldie-but-goodie video. And yes, I know it's a 'gish-gallop' of claims... Some worthy of discussion, and maybe others not-so-much? However, I find the cumulative affect of all these points to be compelling -- for the theist to ponder.

An excellent summation. Compelling indeed. But then we have to deal with the Christian trump card. God works in mysterious ways.

[Wootah]

165+ posts in, I continue to be excluded from the list of millions/billions, who claim the Christian God works directly in their lives. I am now pleading with theists here to merely demonstrate His existence. Nothing more. I do not feel my request is unreasonable, as I tried, on my own, for decades, to ask Him to reveal Himself to me in a way for which I will no further doubt His very existence. Well, As I continue to wait, please enjoy this oldie-but-goodie video. And yes, I know it's a 'gish-gallop' of claims... Some worthy of discussion, and maybe others not-so-much? However, I find the cumulative affect of all these points to be compelling -- for the theist to ponder. Feel free to use it as a catalyst to launch many new topics

That video was interesting and sent me down a rabbit hole to Capturing Christianity and a discussion between Scott and William Lane Craig.

[TRANSPONDER]

Sorry, responded in the wrong thread, it seems.