Their witness does not agree

[Athetotheist]

"Now the chief priests and all the council sought testimony against Jesus to put him to death, but found none. For many bore false witness against him, but their testimonies did not agree." (Mark 14:55-56)

If the testimony of those witnesses was to be rejected because it didn't agree, how can anyone be blamed for rejecting the resurrection accounts in the gospels for the same reason?

[JehovahsWitness]

WHY WOULD THE DISCIPLES HAVE SOUGHT TO PREPARE FOR THE PASSOVER ON THE 13TH NISAN?

• If the disciples arranged for the room, obtained provisions and organized everything in the late morning or afternoon of the 13th, they would be ready to slaughter, cook and eat the Passover victim that same evening after sundown. By Jesus time "Passover day" (ie the day the meal was eaten) had come to be generally considered as "the first day of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes".

THE DAY BEFORE THAT EVENING'S FEAST

MATTHEW 26:17 On the first day of the Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus, saying: “Where do you want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?

MARK 14:12
"Now on the first day of unfermented cakes, when they customarily sacrificed the passover victim"

LUKE 22:27
"The day of the unfermented cakes now arrived, on which the passover [victim] must be sacrificed"
him.

That Jewish custom (see above) then allows for the question to have been asked of Jesus on 13th Nisan (ie during the daylight hours preceding that evening's festivities) is reflected in the original Greek , note the following...

Gr. word [protos] followed by the genitive case of the next word agrees with the sense and rendering of a like construction in Joh 1:15, 30, namely, he existed before [protos] me. According to Liddell and Scotts Greek-English Lexicon, [protos] is sts. [sometimes] used where we should expect [proteros (meaning former, earlier’)] Revised by H. Jones, Oxford, 1968, p. 1535

• 
  

• NOTE The on Matthew 26:17 in the New World Translation says: “Or, ‘On the day before

.......======================= Nisan 13=========================>|| < ======== Nisan 14 ===============> .....
<---- "go and get the Passover ready..." ---- disciples prepare for passover--->|| SUNSET [slaughter/eat lamb ] ------ DAWN..

Late Morning ------------------------- Thursday 13th Nisan ------------- afternoon ------||[SUNSET]FRIDAY 14 OFFICIALLY BEGINS---->

CONCLUSION It seems therefore the disciples were sent to prepare for the Passover (meal) on the 13th, a few hours before they were set to slaughter the Passover victim.



RELATED POSTS

When were the disciples SENT to arrange for the Passover meal? [this post]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 402#999402

Would Jesus disciples disciples have slaughtered the Passover lamb before evening?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 328#999328

[Difflugia]

That Jewish custom (see above) then allows for the question to have been asked of Jesus on 13th Nisan (ie during the daylight hours preceding that evening's festivities) is reflected in the original Greek , note the following...

Gr. word [proʹtos] followed by the genitive case of the next word agrees with the sense and rendering of a like construction in Joh 1:15, 30, namely, ‘he existed before [proʹtos] me.’� According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, “[proʹtos] is sts. [sometimes] used where we should expect [proʹte·ros (meaning ‘former, earlier’)].� Revised by H. Jones, Oxford, 1968, p. 1535

Here are a few observations to put this in perspective:

• John 1:15 and 30 are already discussing a combination of temporal sequence and primacy. In my opinion, John's wording is intentionally weird to make the specific point that Jesus both was (in an existential sense) before the Baptist and had primacy over him. That's two of the three times (out of more than 150) in the New Testament that the NASB translates a form of Ï€Ï�ῶτος as "before" rather than "beginning" or "first." I don't know where the other one is, so I'm not commenting on it.
• The original, unabridged version of the lexicon you cited expands the "sometimes" to actual references in Greek literature. The examples are in The Iliad, Herodotus, and Antigone. The latest of those predates the Bible and its Koine Greek by 400 years.
• As the lexicon notes, if the author meant "before," we should expect Ï€Ï�ότεÏ�ος and not Ï€Ï�ῶτος

So, we have a word that is used extremely consistently throughout the New Testament to mean "first" or "beginning," it's being used in a known Greek idiom that contemporary Greek readers would understand a particular way, the examples of the alternative reading are from hundreds of years earlier, and the only compelling reason to suggest an alternative reading in the first place is part of an apologetic argument to preserve inerrancy.

[FWI]

You confirm that the first day of Unleavened Bread and the day of the killing of the Passover lamb were the same day, and that the day was Nisan 14.

Yes, I do confirm that…Yet, it must be remembered that the 14th of Nisan was a 24hr. period. Where, the Feast of UB began at the very start of the 14th. But, the killing of the lambs/goats did not begin until about 17 hours later! And, another 7 hours would have passed-by before the lambs were eaten.

However, you seem to keep overlooking the synoptics' other significant statement about Nisan 14: that it was also the day when Jesus sent his disciples to prepare the Passover for him to eat with them.

No, I don't believe that I'm overlooking anything. Luke records that the Feast of UB drew near, which is called the Passover (Luke 22:1). So, it should be clear that Luke is not referring to the Passover sacrifice meal and neither was Matthew or Mark. All three books were referring to the first evening meal of the Feast of UB, which did not include: a lamb or bitter herbs. Since, there is no dispute (except by conspiracy theories) that the Passover sacrifice meal was eaten on the beginning of the 15th of Nisan for thousands of years, the idea that the Christ ate a Passover sacrifice meal on the 15th of Nisan is disproved! Because, he died the same day the Passover sacrifices were being killed on the 14th of Nisan.

Therefore, since John 18:28-29 clearly states that this event (the Christ's trial and murder) had occurred on the 14th of Nisan and the three Synoptic gospels record the same event. They, as well, are supporting that the Christ came to Pilate, before the Passover sacrifices were eaten on the 15th of Nisan…

Jesus sent his disciples out on the 14th to prepare a meal which he would eat with them that night

No, this is incorrect! The Christ didn't send his two disciples on the 14th, he sent them on the 13th. This is supported in Matthew 26:2, Mark 14:1, Luke 22:1-2 and John 13:1-2.

Hence, I don't see any "reasonable" way around this! Where, the rebuttals are only opinions and don't agree with the records…So, where in the bible does the Christ claim that the process used, during the 1st century was in error? Because, if it was; he surely would have said so…

[Athetotheist]

WHY WOULD THE DISCIPLES HAVE SOUGHT TO PREPARE FOR THE PASSOVER ON THE 13TH NISAN?

• If the disciples arranged for the room, obtained provisions and organized everything in the late morning or afternoon of the 13th, they would be ready to slaughter, cook and eat the Passover victim that same evening after sundown. By Jesus time "Passover day" (ie the day the meal was eaten) had come to be generally considered as "the first day of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes".

THE DAY BEFORE THAT EVENING'S FEAST

MATTHEW 26:17 On the first day of the Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus, saying: “Where do you want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?�

MARK 14:12
"Now on the first day of unfermented cakes, when they customarily sacrificed the passover victim"

LUKE 22:27
"The day of the unfermented cakes now arrived, on which the passover [victim] must be sacrificed"
him.

That Jewish custom (see above) then allows for the question to have been asked of Jesus on 13th Nisan (ie during the daylight hours preceding that evening's festivities) is reflected in the original Greek , note the following...

Gr. word [proʹtos] followed by the genitive case of the next word agrees with the sense and rendering of a like construction in Joh 1:15, 30, namely, ‘he existed before [proʹtos] me.’� According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, “[proʹtos] is sts. [sometimes] used where we should expect [proʹte·ros (meaning ‘former, earlier’)].� Revised by H. Jones, Oxford, 1968, p. 1535

• 
  

• NOTE The on Matthew 26:17 in the New World Translation says: “Or, ‘On the day before.’

.......======================= Nisan 13=========================>|| < ======== Nisan 14 ===============> .....
<---- "go and get the Passover ready..." ---- disciples prepare for passover--->|| SUNSET [slaughter/eat lamb ] ------ DAWN..

Late Morning ------------------------- Thursday 13th Nisan ------------- afternoon ------||[SUNSET]FRIDAY 14 OFFICIALLY BEGINS---->

CONCLUSION It seems therefore the disciples were sent to prepare for the Passover (meal) on the 13th, a few hours before they were set to slaughter the Passover victim.



RELATED POSTS

When were the disciples SENT to arrange for the Passover meal? [this post]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 402#999402

Would Jesus disciples disciples have slaughtered the Passover lamb before evening?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 328#999328

You're trying to render the word "protos" (first) in Mark and Matthew as meaning "before" [as in, before the first day of unleavened bread], but that theory breaks down when we read Luke. Luke definitely does not use the word "protos" to mean "before", because he doesn't use the word "protos" at all:

Then (de) came (erchomai) the day (hemera) of unleavened bread (azymos) when (en hos) the passover (pascha) must (dei) be killed (thyos).

So it's fairly clear that Luke isn't referring to a day "before" anything, but simply to the first day of unleavened bread----the day when the passover had to be killed----and Jesus sent his disciples to prepare for the passover meal----the 14th.

[JehovahsWitness]

Luke ... doesn't use the word "protos" at all:

Indeed, all Luke says is that the day arrived; which does not specifically exclude parts of the 13th.

LUKE 22:7
"The day of the unfermented cakes now arrived, on which the passover [victim] must be sacrificed"

Notice STRONGS #2250 commentary for the greek word for DAY...

DAY [gk HEMERA: ][literally daylight hours] or the whole ...24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively, a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context):--age, + alway, (mid-)day (by day, (-ly)), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.

Vines gives several possible definitions for HEMERA, one of which is ...

(d) a period of undefined length marked by certain characteristics
https://studybible.info/vines/Day

Thus Luke introduces his narrative by telling us the main events of the festival, but his choice of words can certainly include parts of 13th Nisan.


JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

THE PASSOVER, THE MOSAIC LAW COVENANT and ... SABBATH KEEPING

[Athetotheist]

Luke ... doesn't use the word "protos" at all:

Indeed, all Luke says is that the day arrived; which does not specifically exclude parts of the 13th.

LUKE 22:7
"The day of the unfermented cakes now arrived, on which the passover [victim] must be sacrificed"

Notice STRONGS #2250 commentary for the greek word for DAY...

DAY [gk HEMERA: ][literally daylight hours] or the whole ...24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively, a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context):--age, + alway, (mid-)day (by day, (-ly)), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.

Vines gives several possible definitions for HEMERA, one of which is ...

(d) a period of undefined length marked by certain characteristics
https://studybible.info/vines/Day

Thus Luke introduces his narrative by telling us the main events of the festival, but his choice of words can certainly include parts of 13th Nisan.


JW

"Always defined more or less clearly by the context...."

Vines may give a general definition of a day, but Luke defines a specific day: the day of unleavened bread when the passover must be killed. And Luke claims in 1:3 to have "traced all things from the start with accuracy": "akribos" (meaning "exact", "accurate" or "diligent").

[FWI]

[Replying to post 175 by Athetotheist]

The most important issue that seems to be overlooked (in this discussion) is the reality of the context. It is suggested that 3 of 4 gospels were first written in Hebrew, then all four translated into Greek, then Latin and finally English and other languages. Where, the truth is that we don't have any of the original writings available to cross check each other! We only have the interpretations of others…Hence, to imply that there can be no errors or mistranslations is unrealistic.

This seems to have occurred in Matthew 22:7…Where the Greek word "erchomai" (G2064) is translated "came" and means: to come or come. It can also be understood to mean: I am coming. Which, implies that it hasn't arrived yet! This also can be seen in the Latin Vulgar, where the translation can imply to "move nearer."

So, in cases like this one and others (the resurrection), we can't fully trust that the intent of the original writer has been properly conveyed. So, we must review all the available material that relates to the subject matter and not just focus on a few verses. It's kinda like putting a puzzle together, where the effort put forth can determine the understanding received…If, that is what one is looking for.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to post 175 by Athetotheist]

The most important issue that seems to be overlooked (in this discussion) is the reality of the context. It is suggested that 3 of 4 gospels were first written in Hebrew, then all four translated into Greek, then Latin and finally English and other languages. Where, the truth is that we don't have any of the original writings available to cross check each other! We only have the interpretations of others…Hence, to imply that there can be no errors or mistranslations is unrealistic.

Why inspire the original writings and not inspire the translations?

[Difflugia]

Why inspire the original writings and not inspire the translations?

That's the argument accepted by much of the "King James only" movement.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 175 by Athetotheist]

Yes context is vital which is why I have referenced my answers to the traditions of the day.



HISTORY

Did the Israelites have an annual spring festival prior to the fist Passover?
viewtopic.php?p=1081966#p1081966



PASSOVER FESTIVAL PERIOD

How was the Passover day calculated in Jesus day?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 96#p911296

When was the Jewish PASSOVER?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 32#p893932

When was the "day of preparation" ?
viewtopic.php?p=1082233#p1082233

When was "the first day of the Passover festival"?
viewtopic.php?p=1082286#p1082286

When was the festival of unleaven bread/cakes?
viewtopic.php?p=1082771#p1082771

Were the Passover (sedar) meal and 7 day temple festival REALLY on two different dates?
viewtopic.php?p=1082314#p1082314

Was the Passover (sedar) meal the ONLY religious (ceremonial) meal eaten during the Passover season?
viewtopic.php?p=1082290#p1082290

When did the Jewish calander depart from the biblical tradition?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 62#p910962

When was the Sedar Passover meal moved from Nisan 14 to the 15th?
viewtopic.php?p=1083057#p1083057



For how long would Jews be obliged to keep the Passover?
viewtopic.php?p=1043389#p1043389

PASSOVER MEAL ("SEDAR")

What TIME was the Passover victim to be slaughtered and eaten?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 24#p894024

What time of day was the lamb slaughtered [Exodus 12:6]?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 61#p894061

Where and by whom, was the Passover (Sedar) lamb sacrifices?
viewtopic.php?p=1082798#p1082798

Why do modern Jews eat the Seder meal on the 15th Nisan and not the 14th?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 68#p894168

JESUS LAST PASSOVER

What day did Jesus send his disciples out to prepare for the Passover evening meal (sedar)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 02#p999402

Could Luke 22:7 be read to mean the disciples prepared for the Passover meal on the 13th Nisan?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 73#p999573

Would Jesus disciples disciples have slaughtered the Passover lamb before evening?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 28#p999328

Did Jesus inaugorate his own memorial (with bread and wine) during the occassion of a Passover (sedar) meal?
viewtopic.php?p=1082977#p1082977

When (at what moment during the evening) did Jesus pass the bread and the wine?
viewtopic.php?p=1043181#p1043181

JOHN'S ACCOUNT

When was the "day of preparation" ?
viewtopic.php?p=1082233#p1082233

Does John 13:1 not indicate John's "evening meal" was BEFORE the Passover (Sedar) ?
viewtopic.php?p=1083018#p1083018

Was John's "evening meal" the (Sedar) PASSOVER meal of the Synoptics?
viewtopic.php?p=1082886#p1082886

Does JOHN 18:28 indicate at Jesus trial he had not yet eaten the sedar meal ?
viewtopic.php?p=1083033#p1083033

Does Johns employ of metonym mean he could not be referring to 15th Nisan at John 18:28? [eating a festival]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 34#p998834

Were the Passover (sedar) meal and 7 day temple festival REALLY on two different dates?
viewtopic.php?p=1082314#p1082314

Was John being deliberately ambiguious with his time makers?
viewtopic.php?p=998858#p998858

JEHOVAHS WITNESS MEMORIAL OF CHRIST'S DEATH?

Why do most Jehovah's Witnesses not eat the bread or drink the wine at their memorial commemoration?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 20#p961920

What are the aspects of the Passover that are valuable for a Christian to meditate on?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 22#p961422

How is Jesus our "Passover"?
viewtopic.php?p=1071157#p1071157

Are Christians under obligation to observe the Jewish PASSOVER?
viewtopic.php?p=1042845#p1042845

To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

THE PASSOVER, THE MOSAIC LAW COVENANT and ... SABBATH KEEPING