A simple---but serious---question

[Athetotheist]

There are numerous god-men who died and rose from death in stories predating the time of Jesus. Considering the notable differences between the gospel accounts, and particularly the differences between the accounts of Jesus's supposed resurrection, here's a question for gospel apologists to think seriously about:

There are four resurrection accounts about Jesus in the Christian gospels. If the exact same accounts, with the exact same differences, were written about Osiris, Tammuz, Attis or any such god-man other than Jesus, would Christian apologists find all of those accounts believable?

And if they wouldn't find all of them believable, would they find any of them believable?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #165]

If there were other stories like Jesus, which there are not, then Satan could have known about how God would incarnate and so try to create something like it. If so, he would want Jesus to die to match said story to give power to atheists saying, "this is just like Horus"

If Jesus dying would bring about salvation for humankind, why would Satan have wanted that? If he left Jesus to die of old age and not as a sacrifice for sin, it wouldn't matter what atheists----or anyone else----said.

Besides, it doesn't take an atheist to recognize the conspicuous similarity of details between earlier pagan stories and the Christian narrative.

Jesus would have died either way. It was the will of God that he dies as a man. No one can stop the will of God. If from God's eternal act God decided something to be, then it cannot be changed. If Satan knew this was the will of God he would know it cannot be stopped, so he might as well try to help it along in a way he can try to cause doubt in it.

Such as Why would Jesus' disciple turn again him like that?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #171

Jesus would have died either way.

....but would not have died shedding blood to atone for sin.

If Satan knew this was the will of God he would know it cannot be stopped

Here's an observation of mine from another thread:

I remember a TV preacher once asking his broadcast audience, "If you were Satan....." I don't remember the rest of the question, but I seem to remember that he was talking about prophecy and arguing that Satan was up to some diabolical mischief ("If you were Satan, isn't that what you would do?").

A lot of detail in Christian scripture about what is to happen before Jesus returns is tied to the activity of "Satan". The appearance of the "antichrist", in particular, is supposed to be part of Satan's last gambit before he goes down to utter defeat.

Since it was asked of me how I would react if I were Satan, I think it's fair for me to answer. I know that "Satan" is supposed to be a being of superhuman intelligence, but I can't help thinking that if such a being actually existed and if I were that being, I could do a lot better.

If I were "Satan", I would scrap the antichrist plan. If it's all laid out in the Bible, then everyone knows what to expect and you've lost the element of surprise. With that one simple deviation from the prophetic scenario, the whole thing would be gummed up. No antichrist, no mark of the beast, no abomination of desolation, no anything I was supposed to do as Satan to set the stage for the return of Jesus. And without those prophetic components in place, Jesus couldn't return to fulfill prophecy. And how could anyone stop me? I wouldn't be taking some action which could be prevented; I would be defeating prophecy by not taking action.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #171

Jesus would have died either way.

....but would not have died shedding blood to atone for sin.

If Satan knew this was the will of God he would know it cannot be stopped

Here's an observation of mine from another thread:

I remember a TV preacher once asking his broadcast audience, "If you were Satan....." I don't remember the rest of the question, but I seem to remember that he was talking about prophecy and arguing that Satan was up to some diabolical mischief ("If you were Satan, isn't that what you would do?").

A lot of detail in Christian scripture about what is to happen before Jesus returns is tied to the activity of "Satan". The appearance of the "antichrist", in particular, is supposed to be part of Satan's last gambit before he goes down to utter defeat.

Since it was asked of me how I would react if I were Satan, I think it's fair for me to answer. I know that "Satan" is supposed to be a being of superhuman intelligence, but I can't help thinking that if such a being actually existed and if I were that being, I could do a lot better.

If I were "Satan", I would scrap the antichrist plan. If it's all laid out in the Bible, then everyone knows what to expect and you've lost the element of surprise. With that one simple deviation from the prophetic scenario, the whole thing would be gummed up. No antichrist, no mark of the beast, no abomination of desolation, no anything I was supposed to do as Satan to set the stage for the return of Jesus. And without those prophetic components in place, Jesus couldn't return to fulfill prophecy. And how could anyone stop me? I wouldn't be taking some action which could be prevented; I would be defeating prophecy by not taking action.

I mean that Jesus would have still died on the cross. Satan doesn't believe he is in some war with God. He is not dumb. No one thinks they stand a chance against God. Satan is more like a freewill tool that God uses for his plan.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #173

Satan doesn't believe he is in some war with God. He is not dumb. No one thinks they stand a chance against God.

If he isn't that dumb now, how would he have been dumb enough to rebel in the first place?

Satan is more like a freewill tool that God uses for his plan.

Are you saying that Satan has free will and uses it to do the will of God? If that's the case, how did he rebel at all?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #173

Satan doesn't believe he is in some war with God. He is not dumb. No one thinks they stand a chance against God.

If he isn't that dumb now, how would he have been dumb enough to rebel in the first place?

Satan is more like a freewill tool that God uses for his plan.

Are you saying that Satan has free will and uses it to do the will of God? If that's the case, how did he rebel at all?

I am not saying that Satan chooses to do the will of God. I am saying God is God so he can use freewill agents for his will.

It is not the Satan rebelled in the sense of starting a war with God. That would be senseless and he knows that. His pride got the better of him. It is why we are not born with God but on earth, so we can endure temptations and overcome sin without the beatific vision, so that we will not fall to pride like Satan.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #175

It is not the Satan rebelled in the sense of starting a war with God. That would be senseless and he knows that. His pride got the better of him.

What exactly do you think Satan's prideful goal was? If he knew that he couldn't defeat God, what could pride move him to do? If his pride could move him to disobey his own creator, who he knew to be omnipotent, how could he be that intelligent?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #175

It is not the Satan rebelled in the sense of starting a war with God. That would be senseless and he knows that. His pride got the better of him.

What exactly do you think Satan's prideful goal was? If he knew that he couldn't defeat God, what could pride move him to do? If his pride could move him to disobey his own creator, who he knew to be omnipotent, how could he be that intelligent?

No one knows, but here is my idea.

One thing Satan must have lacked was divine knowledge of the whole of time. And so just as humans that lack the ability to see the purpose of all things, to see the whole of time, the whole picture, they wonder why is there so much suffering in the world? Then maybe in their pride they think, maybe God doesn't exist. I would do all this so differently. I would do better than God. I would rid the world of suffering.

So if Satan saw the plan of God and how much humans will suffer, he might have thought, no, this cannot be right. What could the purpose of this possibly be? You cannot do this God. You cannot create humans. He began to think maybe there is a way to bypass it all. He gets consumed in his pride and thinks he could have done it better.

So he motivated Adam and Eve to that first sin, which is to think they could decide for themselves what is good and bad. They are smart enough on their own to figure out all things. This is similar to how many unbelievers think now. We can figure the whole world out on our own.

As to how he flips on humans to the point he wants to deceive them, I am unsure. Maybe he comes to despise men for his fall. If they were never created he would never have fallen, so it is their fault.

You don't need God he might tell us. Do it on your own. Get rich. Live the best life while you can. Don't suffer for God. Do not participate in his plan. Figure it out on your own. Make your own rules. You live and you die.

Maybe he and demons try to put such ideas in our mind because they despise us now. They despise that we can come out of darkness and find God, while they were with God with the beatific vision and moved into darkness.

We start in darkness and move into the light. They began in light and moved themselves to darkness.

Maybe they feel we are not worthy of beatific vision because of all our sins, and so they try to prevent us from obtaining God.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #176]

Or perhaps from the very beginning of Satan seeing that humans will be created he is disgusted by the idea. God, you cannot create these beings in darkness like this. They are so horrible. Why would you ever allow any of them to come to heaven?

They will rape, steal, murder, kill, kidnap, such horrible evils. These ideas would have never even crossed our minds had we not learned what humans would be.

And then in his pride thought God is making a mistake here. He cannot let humans into heaven. He refuses to. They are not worthy, so when he falls he tries from the beginning to get them to do evil so they never obtain heaven.

And perhaps part of his fall was seeing God's ultimate plan to become human, to become one of these disgusting sinners. No, God this is not befitting of you. You cannot become human.

And Satan of course thinks, God knows all, so he know my heart is set on confusing humans so they do not obtain heaven so maybe God will never become one of them. And then he thinks, God created me, knowing that I would do these very things so he must want or need me to do them.

Satan might rationalize his behaviors in this way.

Before God incarnates Satan might try to motivate humans to create as many similar stories as possible to cause as much doubt in the incarnation as possible, so humans never obtain heaven.

Then when it actually comes to God incarnating, from our point of view, Satan knows he failed it preventing God from doing it, so all he can do now is try to put as much doubt into it as possible, by making one of Jesus' disciples turn against him, and maybe, that is the point Satan might think.

Maybe if one of the 12 that he has chosen betrays him, he will see humans are not worth it.

[tokutter]

sometimes it's not what is said about what supposedly happened ............but what didn't happen. here we have the son of god telling his disciples and followers (which I think John numbered in the thousands) that he will be killed and rise in 3 days.................he gets himself killed...and entombed.........then what happens, everybody goes back to their workaday lives????.... people at present pay good hard earned money to sit and have great magicians do magic that they know is an illusion..........he we have the "real deal".......the messiah coming back........AND EVERYBODY GOES HOME????........i would have thought there would have been a camp encircling the tomb of at least hundreds just staring..............tick.....tick.....tick.......tick.............maybe it's just me.

[William]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #178]

Satan [as the fallen angel/devil] is largely the fictional product of Christianity.

The Christianities attempting to un-slur the image of YHVH as presented by the Israelites/Hebrews but has been unsuccessful in getting humans any closer to understanding YHVH in the image of אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה

The mirror image of this process can be seen in how Early Christians understood the image of Satan as per the Hebrew Script - to appear as such;

and it was only much later that The Christianites reshaped Satan to appear as such;