Why All the Pageantry?

[POI]

If God wanted to forgive us, why not just forgive us? He's God.

Why clone himself, send that human to earth, and have this god-clone be martyred/murdered to atone for human sin (like a sheep) -- only to have this martyred/murdered clone almost immediately ascend back up to heaven -- (a place of perfect bliss anyways)? Seems like a lot of unnecessary-ness. It also does not really seem like an "ultimate sacrifice" anyhow.

For Debate:

(again) If God wanted to forgive us, why not just forgive us? He's God. If no one 'deserves' God's true grace anyways, then just forgive all. What's with all the extra pageantry?

[1213]

...
Luke even explains that they rested on the day before the First day, Sunday, ...

If you connect the Gospels as I showed, there is no contradiction. And that is my main point. And it means, the women went to the tomb at Sunday morning. After Mary saw that the tomb was empty, she left to tell others, while the other women stayed and got the message from the person in the tomb and after that they left to tell it to other disciples. Meanwhile Mary was telling what she saw to Peter and other disciple and went to the tomb to see it empty. After Peter and the other saw the empty tomb, they left. Mary stayed and saw Jesus and then left to tell it to others.

The four Gospels are all small part of bigger story. When they are connected correctly, they give larger image of the events that day. And to me how they form it, is evidence for that it is not just made up story. If people would just make up such a story, they would not write it that way.

While you're at it, care to explain how I incorrectly cut and pasted or compared two different events when the events of the nativities (specifically whether Joseph intended to return to Judea or to Nazareth) contradicted?

To have a contradiction there, it is possible only by connecting scriptures wrongly. So, please show the exact scriptures that you think are in contradiction and I then show why it is not.

P.s I have laid a bear trap in there. you probably won't fall in, but let's see....

[TRANSPONDER]

...
Luke even explains that they rested on the day before the First day, Sunday, ...

If you connect the Gospels as I showed, there is no contradiction. And that is my main point. And it means, the women went to the tomb at Sunday morning. After Mary saw that the tomb was empty, she left to tell others, while the other women stayed and got the message from the person in the tomb and after that they left to tell it to other disciples. Meanwhile Mary was telling what she saw to Peter and other disciple and went to the tomb to see it empty. After Peter and the other saw the empty tomb, they left. Mary stayed and saw Jesus and then left to tell it to others.

The four Gospels are all small part of bigger story. When they are connected correctly, they give larger image of the events that day. And to me how they form it, is evidence for that it is not just made up story. If people would just make up such a story, they would not write it that way.

While you're at it, care to explain how I incorrectly cut and pasted or compared two different events when the events of the nativities (specifically whether Joseph intended to return to Judea or to Nazareth) contradicted?

To have a contradiction there, it is possible only by connecting scriptures wrongly. So, please show the exact scriptures that you think are in contradiction and I then show why it is not.

P.s I have laid a bear trap in there. you probably won't fall in, but let's see....

Ok. You ignore what the Bible actually says. Luke 24 10 says all the women including Mary saw all this. You cannot split them up and pretend that Mary ran back before the angel had said anything. Remember Cleophas says that the women saw the angels and heard that Jesus had risen, so even if Mary hadn't seen Jesus, the other women had and Cleophas heard what they had to say. Your excuse fails.

Neither can you get out of it by hinting at the 'Jesus did many other things' apologetic. We are focussing on the specific thing that happened. The women went to the tomb, heard what the angel said, (or not - John does not mention and angel and Mary knows nothing but the tomb is empty) saw Jesus, or not - and reported back to the disciples who checked the tomb. Cleophad MUST have stayed long enough to hear the report and the gist of the angelic message. It means that even if Mary had already gone, Cleophas heard the report of ALL the women even if you donot include Mary as Luke has it.

You have 'connected' (or rather not) scripture wrongly. Or where you got it from. I would like to know - this is so familiar, did you think that up yourself or get that from some apologetics site? It's wrong in any case.

You missed the bear trap.

[1213]

...You ignore what the Bible actually says. Luke 24 10 says all the women including Mary saw all this. ...

And they were Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary mother of James, and the rest with them, who told these things to the apostles.
Luke 24:10

That does not mean they told exact same things, or that they experiences exact same things.

[TRANSPONDER]

...You ignore what the Bible actually says. Luke 24 10 says all the women including Mary saw all this. ...

And they were Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary mother of James, and the rest with them, who told these things to the apostles.
Luke 24:10

That does not mean they told exact same things, or that they experiences exact same things.

Thank you. Perfect example of quotemining and quoting out of context. The context being:

Luke 24. 1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3 but when they went in they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel. 5 And as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, 7 that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.” 8 And they remembered his words, 9 and returning from the tomb they told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest. 10 Now it was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told these things to the apostles.

They went in. They were told that Jesus had risen. They reported all this to the apostles. It was Mary Magdalene and the others that reported this. There is no mention of them running into Jesus on the way as per Matthew.

Cleophas must be there to hear this and also waited until the disciples checked and came back to confirm it.

All this is the context of what absolutely Cleophas tells Jesus. And even if the women said different things, Cleoiphas heard all their stories, including the one that some of them had run into Jesus. If they had said so. There is no good reason Cleophas would have failed to mention this if he had heard it from one or two of the women, but he does not.

There is no mention in Luke, Matthew or anyone else that the women split up and some met Jesus and others did not, or that they told contradictory tales. The only contradictory tales are the one the Gospel -writers made up because none of them saw what the others had written. The excuses are made up (1) and have no basis in the text. It is what we in the trade call 'Making stuff up"..

There is nothing wrong with your English but something wrong with your argument - you are trying to paper over a contradiction that really you can't. Not by trying to bamboozle me. I have beaten better bamboozlers than you 9 falls out of 10.

(1) again, do you think this up or did you read it somewhere?It seems to be a common Excuse

[1213]

...Luke 24. 1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3 but when they went in they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel. 5 And as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, 7 that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.” 8 And they remembered his words, 9 and returning from the tomb they told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest. 10 Now it was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told these things to the apostles.

They went in. They were told that Jesus had risen. They reported all this to the apostles. It was Mary Magdalene and the others that reported this....

They went in, it is true, all of them went in the tomb at some point. It is also true that, as the Bible tells, the women told about these things. However, it does no mean that they all experienced the exact same things. By what Luke tells, it is possible that thing went as I told and Mary was not with the other women all the time.

[TRANSPONDER]

...Luke 24. 1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3 but when they went in they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel. 5 And as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, 7 that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.” 8 And they remembered his words, 9 and returning from the tomb they told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest. 10 Now it was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told these things to the apostles.

They went in. They were told that Jesus had risen. They reported all this to the apostles. It was Mary Magdalene and the others that reported this....

They went in, it is true, all of them went in the tomb at some point. It is also true that, as the Bible tells, the women told about these things. However, it does no mean that they all experienced the exact same things. By what Luke tells, it is possible that thing went as I told and Mary was not with the other women all the time.

There is nothing in the account to say this. I know what you are doing 'There cannot be a contradiction; there must be some explanation'. I know what you have Faith in. I'm saying, can you see why this looks like a valid contradiction that needs inventing something not in the Bible to explain it? It is not about making stuff up to keep your faith intact, it is about what the evidence makes as an objective case.

Matthew has it that Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (supposedly Jesus' mother) went to the tomb. The angel invites them to see the place he had been and though it doesn't say so, we can assume they did before they ran off in joy to tell the disciples. They - not one or the other - run into Jesus, then they must tell the disciples and the 'eleven' as they then go to Galilee as instructed.

Mark says they entered the tomb. But it's another contradiction as they do not see Jesus nor report to the disciples, or Mark (unamended) doesn't say so. John of course has no angel nor message and he says only Mary Magdalene went to the tomb, found it empty and told the disciples (same event as running with the angelic message to the disciples) that she doesn't know where Jesus is. Without making stuff up, this totally sinks the synoptic version and shows the angel and message was made up to explain that Jesus had risen, not of course the disciples took the body away.

Luke has not just the two women but a number of others. Luke tells us they were the women who followed him from Galilee, one of which was Mary Magdalene. Whether you have Luke's crowd of Females, Matthew's two Marys or John's one Mary Magdalene, Luke makes it clear that they entered in and found the tomb empty and later says it was Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus and the others went from the sepulchre and told all these things to the disciples.

There is nothing to separate Mary Magdalene or any others so she or any other missed seeing Jesus.

In any case, as I said, it makes no difference as they must all report back to the disciples that the tomb is empty and they check and come back and Cleophas hears the whole story. But while reporting the angels, message and claim Jesus has risen (Luke 24.24), and the disciples checking the tomb, no mention that they actually saw Jesus.

There is no justification for making stuff up other than inability to accept there is a real contradiction, on all evidence. You may make stuff up to persuade yourself there is no problem, but it doesn't make a case.

And this is just one of many contradiction in the resurrection, gospels and the whole Bible. Faith aside, you do understand why we don't believe it?

And are you able to tell me where you heard this 'The women split up' idea? As I have heard it two or three times before.

[1213]

...I know what you are doing 'There cannot be a contradiction...

What I try to do is to show, as long as something can be seen without contradictions, the contradiction is not proven and it is then just baseless opinion. The gospels leave many things open, which is why they are not contradictory. Contradictions happen only when one adds own meanings to the story.

Not saying something doesn't mean something could not have happened. And telling few things about the events doesn't necessary mean it was all that happened. All gospels tell only small part of larger story. For example saying "there was two women" is not the same as "there was only two women". I think your contradiction claims work only, if one fills empty or open parts with own meanings. I think it is not honest and i think it is interesting that best that anti Christian people can offer is such biased and ignorant claims that don't really stand truth. If Bible is erroneous book, it should be easy to show without twisting truth and making baseless claims.

But, I thank you for showing that Bible is great book. Even after trying really hard, you can't show any real error in it.

[brunumb]

...I know what you are doing 'There cannot be a contradiction...

What I try to do is to show, as long as something can be seen without contradictions, the contradiction is not proven and it is then just baseless opinion. The gospels leave many things open, which is why they are not contradictory. Contradictions happen only when one adds own meanings to the story.

The evidence for the contradictions exists in the text itself. There is no evidence for your invented scenarios which attempt to eliminate those contradictions. What you are suggesting is what actually amounts to baseless opinion. It is driven by starting with a conclusion and trying to retrofit some sort of validation for that conclusion.

[TRANSPONDER]

...I know what you are doing 'There cannot be a contradiction...

What I try to do is to show, as long as something can be seen without contradictions, the contradiction is not proven and it is then just baseless opinion. The gospels leave many things open, which is why they are not contradictory. Contradictions happen only when one adds own meanings to the story.

The evidence for the contradictions exists in the text itself. There is no evidence for your invented scenarios which attempt to eliminate those contradictions. What you are suggesting is what actually amounts to baseless opinion. It is driven by starting with a conclusion and trying to retrofit some sort of validation for that conclusion.

You answered it. The contradiction is real. The Faithful can make up anything and (as I think I have shown) it does not actually fit what the Bible says. But nevertheless, the Faithful say 'seen without contradictions' where not seeing them or denying them shows there aren't any. We know that the Faithful deny everything and 'The Bible is a Great Book' because the faithful deny what it actually says, not just what it works out as. We knew the Believers would not care about the evidence and reason, but opt for Faithbaed denial. It leaves us with the case we present and whether people care about how the evidence looks or how they would prefer it to look.

As was always the case it comes down to getting the case out there and people being willing to listen without prejudice.

[boatsnguitars]

If God wanted to forgive us, why not just forgive us?

By what the Bible tells, that is exactly what He did. But then people decided to kill people who bring that message.

Do you mean:
The First Crusade (1096-1099) ...
The Second Crusade (1147-1149) ...
The Third Crusade (1187-1192) ...
The Fourth Crusade (1202-1204) ...
Final Crusades (1208-1271)

Or just the Inquisition?

Or John Calvin killing Servetus?

Or, the execution of heretics?

Or, the genocide of native Canadian children by Christians?

Hard to keep track....