WHOSE SIDE WAS GOD ON IN WW2?

[2Dbunk]

Gott mit uns (God is with us) was stamped on the German soldiers belt buckle in both WW1 and WW2. They lost both wars so their very Christian leaders evidently led their youth down the primrose path to destruction. At the same time here in America God has undoubtedly blessed us also (because we are a Christian country), and we were a significant party to winning both wars. I ask how can the same God be on both sides in such global conflicts? Was one (or both) of these nations dissembling in their gross presumption that God had anything to do with their participation in the two wars?

Seneca, a Roman philosopher, once said: Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful. That was about the time of Christ " the world hasnt learned much in all that time, has it? The common people continue to be led by the nose by rulers who know how to manipulate them.

So, whose side was God on in WW2?

Is this a valid question?

Was Seneca wrong in his pronouncement?

[William]

[Replying to post 17 by William]

What you have quoted there is biblical reference to atrocities carried out by others who claimed that GOD had told them to do this.

True. My post was directed at the claim by JehovahsWitness that Christianity and the teachings of Jesus are incompatible with human war. And yet in the OT God is specifically indicated as commanding that the enemies of the Hebrews be wiped out utterly. These two opinions simply are not compatible.

As such, this is not evidence that GOD told them to do anything. Anyone can claim GOD told them to do 'this' or 'that', does not mean to say GOD told them.
Claims require evidence.

The OT very clearly indicates that God Himself commanded that mass murder be carried out. To claim that God was NOT responsible for the command undermines the authority of the Bible, since the Bible has been declared to be the very Word of God. If the Bible IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD, then it is simply the meanderings of ancient humans. All claims based upon what is written in the Bible are meaningless.

Which brings us all, I believe, to exactly to the point that you are attempting to make.

You have attempted to create a circular argument of sorts.

If you go back and read what I posted in context, you should see plainly that your argument in reply only rings true if you leave out the context of what I was speaking about.

In relation to the OP, "That was about the time of Christ " the world hasnt learned much in all that time, has it? The common people continue to be led by the nose by rulers who know how to manipulate them. " - my post focuses on that in relation to the claims re OT GOD.
Assuming the GOD is the same, the GOD cannot have ordered such atrocities.

Understandably, you argue with those who conflate the two ideas, but they argue on the assumption that the GOD the Israelite's claimed had ordered them to do these things, did indeed make the orders. They take the word of the claim as being true, without evidence.

Jesus said this, when those claiming to be 'the Children of Abraham' wanted to [strike]murder [/strike] kill him:

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. Read the whole account here - [link]

All atrocities done in the name of GOD (claimed as being ordered by GOD) are of the Filthy Little Liar.

AS the book says, the works of GOD can be seen in the good stuff. The Filthy little liar does the rest in the name of GOD (by pretending to be GOD)...the book tells of the ebbs and flows of that battle.

The trick used is to infer contradiction and those who cannot see the clear differences in the way the two GODs behave, become confused and the confused are easily lead.

If someone wanted to prove to you that GOD is evil and kidnapped you and tortured you and said "See! If GOD existed, would he not save you from this evil!! Therefore since there is no evidence of GOD doing that, then GOD must be evil for allowing it to happen to you!"

Therefore:

IF
GOD exists
THEN
God must be evil!

Jesus put a spoke in that wheel of circular reasoning.

The journey through this world of polarities allows for the individual to decide the answer to that question.

The Israelite's did the killing of there own accord.

OR

GOD is evolving along with humans and the choice of which GOD idea we choose to serve through that process is up to the individual to make and support.

Either way, things are covered.

It is no coincidence that Jesus injected the concept of forgiveness into the mix.

Importantly, would I be able to say "GOD is not evil", if someone kidnapped me and tortured me. Would my mind freak and would I want the pain to stop and would I agree to anything just for the pain to stop?

Or would I know, GOD is not evil..or if you prefer, 'is no longer evil.' and take my punishment like a martyr?

Or should I shut up and wait for death to claim me?

Or should I secretly know that GOD will intervene on my behalf and put a stop to my suffering?

Or would I silently hold fast to my belief that IF there were a GOD, THEN it would have to be at least, NOT evil?

Which allows for me now to say;
"IF any entity claimed to being GOD, THEN I would know this to be the case IF the Entity is not evil."

Until that day, this jury (points own finger at self) continues to examine the evidence as presented.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 17 by William]

Well, if you can't trust the Bible for something like that, when do you trust it? Whenever it doesn't irk you?

[Replying to post 18 by Elijah John]

So are you comparing the USA to Nazi Germany, making a moral equivalency between the two?

If so, don't you think that is a ridiculous comparison?

The answer, it seems is self evident. If there is a God and He is compassionate and takes sides, why wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that He sided with the rescuers and not those who were attempting to commit genocide against Jews and others?

Dude, have you actually read the Bible? It is not reasonable to make this assumption of a God who murdered the entire world, except for a few inbred survivors, (their lineage being pretty inbred themselves)... This God of the Bible took no pity on the people of Israel the first time they are mentioned in history, when they were eliminated to a man, nor the second time (obviously an upstart people), who were decimated. Then there are all the other races who were eliminated, then there are all the other peoples who have survived, the Irish being one example, lots of Northern Europeans... probably lots others.

This God seems to take the side of whomever is writing history. Lies or no. The US certainly did Dresden no favors, nor Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or the Native Indians. Except for propaganda, I can't remotely see how your statement holds any kind of water. (Oops, I guess with God murdering everyone in a flood, instead of admitting he made a mistake, that was poor form, sorry).

[William]

[Replying to post 22 by Willum]

Well, if you can't trust the Bible for something like that, when do you trust it? Whenever it doesn't irk you?

Yes. Like with everything else.

Whadup irksya?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 17 by William]

What you have quoted there is biblical reference to atrocities carried out by others who claimed that GOD had told them to do this.

True. My post was directed at the claim by JehovahsWitness that Christianity and the teachings of Jesus are incompatible with human war. And yet in the OT God is specifically indicated as commanding that the enemies of the Hebrews be wiped out utterly. These two opinions simply are not compatible.

As such, this is not evidence that GOD told them to do anything. Anyone can claim GOD told them to do 'this' or 'that', does not mean to say GOD told them.
Claims require evidence.

The OT very clearly indicates that God Himself commanded that mass murder be carried out. To claim that God was NOT responsible for the command undermines the authority of the Bible, since the Bible has been declared to be the very Word of God. If the Bible IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD, then it is simply the meanderings of ancient humans. All claims based upon what is written in the Bible are meaningless.

Which brings us all, I believe, to exactly to the point that you are attempting to make.

You have attempted to create a circular argument of sorts.

If you go back and read what I posted in context, you should see plainly that your argument in reply only rings true if you leave out the context of what I was speaking about.

In relation to the OP, "That was about the time of Christ " the world hasnt learned much in all that time, has it? The common people continue to be led by the nose by rulers who know how to manipulate them. " - my post focuses on that in relation to the claims re OT GOD.
Assuming the GOD is the same, the GOD cannot have ordered such atrocities.

Understandably, you argue with those who conflate the two ideas, but they argue on the assumption that the GOD the Israelite's claimed had ordered them to do these things, did indeed make the orders. They take the word of the claim as being true, without evidence.

Jesus said this, when those claiming to be 'the Children of Abraham' wanted to [strike]murder [/strike] kill him:

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. Read the whole account here - [link]

All atrocities done in the name of GOD (claimed as being ordered by GOD) are of the Filthy Little Liar.

AS the book says, the works of GOD can be seen in the good stuff. The Filthy little liar does the rest in the name of GOD (by pretending to be GOD)...the book tells of the ebbs and flows of that battle.

The trick used is to infer contradiction and those who cannot see the clear differences in the way the two GODs behave, become confused and the confused are easily lead.

If someone wanted to prove to you that GOD is evil and kidnapped you and tortured you and said "See! If GOD existed, would he not save you from this evil!! Therefore since there is no evidence of GOD doing that, then GOD must be evil for allowing it to happen to you!"

Therefore:

IF
GOD exists
THEN
God must be evil!

Jesus put a spoke in that wheel of circular reasoning.

The journey through this world of polarities allows for the individual to decide the answer to that question.

The Israelite's did the killing of there own accord.

OR

GOD is evolving along with humans and the choice of which GOD idea we choose to serve through that process is up to the individual to make and support.

Either way, things are covered.

It is no coincidence that Jesus injected the concept of forgiveness into the mix.

Importantly, would I be able to say "GOD is not evil", if someone kidnapped me and tortured me. Would my mind freak and would I want the pain to stop and would I agree to anything just for the pain to stop?

Or would I know, GOD is not evil..or if you prefer, 'is no longer evil.' and take my punishment like a martyr?

Or should I shut up and wait for death to claim me?

Or should I secretly know that GOD will intervene on my behalf and put a stop to my suffering?

Or would I silently hold fast to my belief that IF there were a GOD, THEN it would have to be at least, NOT evil?

Which allows for me now to say;
"IF any entity claimed to being GOD, THEN I would know this to be the case IF the Entity is not evil."

Until that day, this jury (points own finger at self) continues to examine the evidence as presented.

Basically, what you are claiming is that anything contained in the Bible that you do not agree with is the work of "the dirty little liar." And anything that is contained in the Bible which you DO agree with is of the one true God. Have I got that about right? This amazing ability that you have to know and recognize the difference makes you pretty special then, it seems to me. We should feel honored to have you as a member of our forum.

[William]

[Replying to post 24 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Basically, what you are claiming is that anything contained in the Bible that you do not agree with is the work of "the dirty little liar."

Not sure how you got that from what I said in my post. I made some connections regarding what Jesus said about those who thought that killing others in the name of GOD was the same as 'doing what GOD wanted.'

And anything that is contained in the Bible which you DO agree with is of the one true God.

Not sure how you got that from what I said in my post. What I said was that there are definite clues as to how a human being can discern between the actions of a real GOD and a false one pretending to be a real one.

Have I got that about right?

Not really. At least you appear to have misunderstood my post.

This amazing ability that you have to know and recognize the difference makes you pretty special then, it seems to me.

Why would that be the case? It seems to me an easy enough thing for anyone to be able to discern. Nothing special in that ToTN.

We should feel honored to have you as a member of our forum.

I feel somewhat honored to be a member of this forum. I have learned a lot, and appreciate that.



eta;

The Bible is not the 'word of GOD'.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 21 by William]



[center]
Lets' not USE terrible reasoning[/center]

All atrocities done in the name of GOD (claimed as being ordered by GOD) are of the Filthy Little Liar.

That seems like begging the question which would invalidate the statement.

It's no use asserting what you want to prove.
That would be going around in a Filthy Little Circle.

This cat prefers TLC over FLC

AS the book says, the works of GOD can be seen in the good stuff. The Filthy little liar does the rest in the name of GOD (by pretending to be GOD)...the book tells of the ebbs and flows of that battle.

Only looking at the good stuff in order to support the thesis that God is ONLY good.. is using confirmation bias.. another problem with Christian apologetic thinking.

As an outsider, an agnostic, an atheist and a skeptic, I view the Bible as a work of fiction that describes what is NOT necessarily true. But even thought I am an outsider to the faith, I can still read the stories.

I have good reason to come to the conclusion that the god of the Bible is an insanely psychopathic evil magical wizard who is called a lot of different names.

If that IS the case ( hard to test for that, other than by using the actual Bible text ), we should expect God to lie.

As an outsider, of course, I don't really care about the fictional character. I've actually come to love to hate "Voldemort" better.. ( at least he is written in a consistent manner ) Booo hisss... don't even mention his name.

The trick used is to infer contradiction and those who cannot see the clear differences in the way the two GODs behave, become confused and the confused are easily lead.

Religious arguments are very clever, aren't they?
No wonder so very many people fall for them.

As far as I'm concerned, critical thinking or skepticism is the way OUT.
If we test for the soundness of the reasoning ... bob's your uncle.

A sound application of reason destroys all the religious arguments that I know of. It's no wonder to me that most apologists are nearly DROWNING in logical mistakes.

Therefore:

IF
GOD exists
THEN
God must be evill!

Well, some people might not agree. Using a bit of reasoning, some people interpret the Bible to mean :


IF
GOD exists
THEN
God must be GOOD !!

God exists, so therefore, God is good.

What also makes me chuckle is that the statement "God exists" hasn't been demonstrated, so neither can the conclusion be demonstrated. We can't actually SAY that God exists or that God is good, using this argument.


The condition "Good" relies on the condition "Exists".


It's the same as with the condition "Evil"
Both conditions rely on the EXISTENCE of a god, first.


Something that does NOT exist CANNOT have any condition OTHER than "non-existence".


When a bit of reasoning is wrong, it can cause a whole LOT of problems for the one using it.


But in any case, to use that reasoning either way is to make a circular argument. And we must remember the phrase "VICIOUS CIRCLE"....

The phrase isn't "VIRTUOUS CIRCLE"...


To me, it represents an almost total waste of time.

( it's not a waste if we learn by the mistake but it IS a mistake)


As an agnostic and a skeptic, I would NOT ever want to use a circular argument like that.

They just fail.

The journey through this world of polarities allows for the individual to decide the answer to that question.

If someone is using circular reasoning ( and we do get a lot of that in here, don't we? ) whatever conclusion they get will be unreliable, invalid, unsound.

So, I suggest that we DROP fallacious reasoning.

The answer to the morality of God will be a matter of opinion.
I have mine, you have yours, we all have our wonderful opinions, don't we?

Isn't the diversity of opinions great?

The only thing that we can do is to test for the soundness of any argument for one position or the other.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to William]

Not sure how you got that from what I said in my post. I made some connections regarding what Jesus said about those who thought that killing others in the name of GOD was the same as 'doing what GOD wanted.'

Take any "connection regarding what Jesus said" about ANYTHING AT ALL, and what you will discover is that the statement in question was derived from an anonymously authored document written decades after Jesus was supposed to have been executed. Since Jesus left NOTHING written in his own hand, we really DO NOT KNOW what Jesus may have said or thought on any particular point with any genuine accuracy. All we have are the words put into his mouth by others years after he was dead. So your ability to "make connections regarding what Jesus said" is nothing more than your personal decision to discard those portions of the Bible that you prefer not to believe, and to include those portions of the Bible which you DO prefer to believe. Essentially this practice allows you to make it up as you go along. Not surprisingly, you have reached conclusions which you find satisfying. Not everyone is quite so contented with the process of making things up and declaring them to be true, however. Many of us prefer a more direct and physical path to determining what is true then simply making up answers we might find pleasing. We refer to this path as "empirical evidence," and it often leads to entirely unexpected places.

Not sure how you got that from what I said in my post. What I said was that there are definite clues as to how a human being can discern between the actions of a real GOD and a false one pretending to be a real one.

And again, you apparently have a very special talent in being able to "discern" the actions of the true God from the false God. Because your view of reality is the real and true view of reality.

Why would that be the case? It seems to me an easy enough thing for anyone to be able to discern. Nothing special in that ToTN.

HOW MANY CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS WORLDWIDE?
World Christian Encyclopedia (David A. Barrett; Oxford University Press, 1982) apparently estimated almost 21,000 denominations, and the updated World Christian Encyclopedia (Barrett, Kurian, Johnson; Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001) estimated at least 33,000. Denomination is defined as an organised christian group within a country.

The Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary estimated 34,000 denominations in 2000, rising to an estimated 43,000 in 2012. These numbers have exploded from 1,600 in the year 1900.
https://theway21stcentury.wordpress.com ... worldwide/

Somewhere between 33,000 and 43,000 Christian denominations worldwide. That's 33,000 to 43,000 different concepts of "the truth." Your ability to know "the real truth" would seem to make you very special indeed. Except of course for the fact that every member of each one of those 33,000 to 43,000 different denominations feels EXACTLY the same about themselves. But as we have been informed many times on the forum by Christians, not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a REAL Christian. REAL Christians can of course be accurately identified as whomever any one of us happens to be in a discussion with at any given time.

I feel somewhat honored to be a member of this forum. I have learned a lot, and appreciate that.

Yes, we are all one big family here. And like many families, we don't always see eye to eye.

[William]

[Replying to William]

Not sure how you got that from what I said in my post. I made some connections regarding what Jesus said about those who thought that killing others in the name of GOD was the same as 'doing what GOD wanted.'

Take any "connection regarding what Jesus said" about ANYTHING AT ALL, and what you will discover is that the statement in question was derived from an anonymously authored document written decades after Jesus was supposed to have been executed. Since Jesus left NOTHING written in his own hand, we really DO NOT KNOW what Jesus may have said or thought on any particular point with any genuine accuracy. All we have are the words put into his mouth by others years after he was dead. So your ability to "make connections regarding what Jesus said" is nothing more than your personal decision to discard those portions of the Bible that you prefer not to believe, and to include those portions of the Bible which you DO prefer to believe. Essentially this practice allows you to make it up as you go along. Not surprisingly, you have reached conclusions which you find satisfying. Not everyone is quite so contented with the process of making things up and declaring them to be true, however. Many of us prefer a more direct and physical path to determining what is true then simply making up answers we might find pleasing. We refer to this path as "empirical evidence," and it often leads to entirely unexpected places.

Well this reasoning would have what to do with the OP? Are we arguing that Jesus never existed or that what is attributed to him having said is under question?

Is Jesus the only one who is attributed with bringing in concepts about GOD which are focused upon goodness rather than evil?
You are free to think of GOD however you want to.

Not sure how you got that from what I said in my post. What I said was that there are definite clues as to how a human being can discern between the actions of a real GOD and a false one pretending to be a real one.

And again, you apparently have a very special talent in being able to "discern" the actions of the true God from the false God. Because your view of reality is the real and true view of reality.

What does your personal opinion about me have to do with anything?

Why would that be the case? It seems to me an easy enough thing for anyone to be able to discern. Nothing special in that ToTN.

HOW MANY CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS WORLDWIDE?
World Christian Encyclopedia (David A. Barrett; Oxford University Press, 1982) apparently estimated almost 21,000 denominations, and the updated World Christian Encyclopedia (Barrett, Kurian, Johnson; Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001) estimated at least 33,000. Denomination is defined as an organised christian group within a country.

The Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary estimated 34,000 denominations in 2000, rising to an estimated 43,000 in 2012. These numbers have exploded from 1,600 in the year 1900.
https://theway21stcentury.wordpress.com ... worldwide/

Somewhere between 33,000 and 43,000 Christian denominations worldwide. That's 33,000 to 43,000 different concepts of "the truth." Your ability to know "the real truth" would seem to make you very special indeed. Except of course for the fact that every member of each one of those 33,000 to 43,000 different denominations feels EXACTLY the same about themselves. But as we have been informed many times on the forum by Christians, not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a REAL Christian. REAL Christians can of course be accurately identified as whomever any one of us happens to be in a discussion with at any given time.

Not sure why you gave these stats? Are you saying they point to GODs attributes being difficult for people to discern?

I feel somewhat honored to be a member of this forum. I have learned a lot, and appreciate that.

Yes, we are all one big family here. And like many families, we don't always see eye to eye.

True. Our eyes are focused upon different things. I see GOD in a more local sense that Christians do. [link] I don't know how you see GOD.

But as I said, re the OP - GOD is on GODs side.

[2Dbunk]

[Replying to post 18 by Elijah John]

So are you comparing the USA to Nazi Germany, making a moral equivalency between the two?

In a sense, contemporarily yes.

If so, don't you think that is a ridiculous comparison?

You are correct, it is ridiculous if one views America's history (what history we were taught in school). Even so, our history (what we weren't taught) has elements of impurity and fascism in the mix. Now, today, the cat is out of the bag so-to-speak with the election of a populist. With a populist (and a lover of nationalism) anything is possible. The comparison that you sensed in my OP can now, today, be made.

Building walls, constricting immigration and proscribing the press are symptoms of fearful reaction. So if America has successfully been able to digest its past, can it continue to do so in the coming year(s)?

The answer, it seems is self evident. If there is a God and He is compassionate and takes sides, why wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that He sided with the rescuers and not those who were attempting to commit genocide against Jews and others?

Good question! But it begs another question: why did it take so long for Him to choose sides? I know time is relative (or irrelative) depending how much patience one has, but for Him to twiddle-twaddle through a dozen attempts to assassinate Hitler, ignoring those courageous attempts to shorten the war (WW2) was totally inexcusable.

I believe my reading of "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" was the last straw that edged me over into disbelief of a God (at least a "personal" God).

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 28 by William]

Well this reasoning would have what to do with the OP?

For God to have chosen sides during WW2, God would first have to exist. So this line of reasoning is basic to the OP.

Are we arguing that Jesus never existed or that what is attributed to him having said is under question?

I personally feel that the cult of the crucified carpenter arose too abruptly to have been based entirely on a myth. Many however point to the undeniable fact that the very existence of Jesus went entirely unreported during his lifetime. No mention of the miraculous things he was reputed to have done caused any mention of those things, or him, to have been noticed and written about at the time he was supposed to have existed. Everything people suppose that they "know" about Jesus was written by others years after he was supposed to have been executed. None of the authors of the Gospels can be established to have even personally met Jesus. So of course the words that they put into his mouth years later are subject to being questioned for their accuracy. I could not accurately recount what I myself said a week ago.

Although some elements of the story MAY generally correspond to actual events, the Jesus that has come down to us in modern times is largely the stuff of myth and legend. The original individual Yeshua, if he existed at all, is not historically recoverable.

Is Jesus the only one who is attributed with bringing in concepts about GOD which are focused upon goodness rather than evil?

The entire Bible is involved with establishing the concept of God. The God of the OT was a very nasty piece of work, who, among everything else, created evil.

Isaiah 45:
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. [kjv]

You are free to think of GOD however you want to.

Since I don't for a minute suppose that any such Being ever existed to begin with, I am forced to draw a composite picture from the claims of others. Two billion Christians have two billion concepts however. Many quite different from each other.

What does your personal opinion about me have to do with anything?

The only opinion of you that I can possibly make is the one derived from the things you tell me about what you believe. For example "All atrocities done in the name of GOD (claimed as being ordered by GOD) are of the Filthy Little Liar." The Bible however plainly tells us that God not only repeatedly ordered the mass murder of helpless woman, children and babies, He once killed every creature on earth, except aquatic life, and the residents of a very large boat. Or did "the Filthy Little Liar" create the Biblical flood?

Not sure why you gave these stats? Are you saying they point to GODs attributes being difficult for people to discern?

I am saying that God exists entirely in the minds of those that conceive of Him and believe in His existence. It works out to more that six billion different concepts of a divine Being which vary drastically from one religion to another, and drastically even within the same general religious belief.

True. Our eyes are focused upon different things. I see GOD in a more local sense that Christians do. [link posting.php] I don't know how you see GOD.

I have never seen God at all.