Is the Christian world view really one of hope?

[TruthSeeker1]

Christians on this site and elsewhere continually preach the idea that the Christian religion is one of hope. Many go so far as to say that those who are not Christian have no hope, only with the Christian viewpoint can one have a hopeful life.

The Christian has to accept that while he may be "saved", many others including non-believing family members and friends are destined for an eternity of torment. Does it really bring more "hope" for Christians to know that a few will enjoy eternal bliss while billions of others including most of the world's impoverished will be eternally tortured?

The question for debate: Is it really honest to call the Christian belief system one of hope?

[katiej49]

no where does God promise any hope for those who reject Christ. He plainly says it is the ONLY hope, putting your faith in Jesus as God's Son and accepting His death and resurrection as your salvation and eternal life. Reject this and you are correct.....there is no hope.

[Beta]

Of course the Bible teaches a compassionate God therefore there will be no eternal torment for unbelievers. They will die in the lake of fire which will be punishment enough. There is no need to hold on to eternal revenge since there is too much else to look forward to.

[Vanguard]

I find it astounding that people worship a man , and make him into a God. It is so Roman.

It's even more astounding that God would become a man in order to make men into gods. It's so... divine.

It's astounding all right. If by astounding you mean unbelievable. Or maybe incomprehensible. Dare I say nonsensical?

Actually, your third descriptor would seem to approximate the experience best. If there were a God he would certainly exist beyond the realm of our temporal senses making any contact with him "nonsensical".

[OnceConvinced]

Nobody chooses to walk the road to hell. They simply choose not to believe in biblical salvation.

No difference. Heaven is facing towards God. Hell is facing away.

It's still not a choice to go to hell. What you are trying to do is relieve God of the burden of responsibility for our executions.

If you punish your child you don't say "Well Johnny, you did the bad thing so that means you wanted me to punish you." We all know that Johnny didn't want to be punished. Punishment is a consequence, not a choice.

Your logic that by us rejecting God we are choosing a particular road is just plain wrong. Imagine this scenario:

Jack: When I grow up, I want to be a truck driver.
Frank: But Jack, you can't. When you grow up, you have to be a fireman.
Jack: I don't want to be a fireman.
Frank: But you have to. If you don't be a fireman, then you have to be a policeman. It's one or the other.

That is the logic you are using Allan.

God isn't into sadism. People, however, harm themselves in a thousand different ways. Even on earth, we see people sinking into self-inflicted hell. Thing is, if they never turn round, they'll walk into deeper and deeper misery. Their choice.

God saves all who can be saved, by whatever means necessary (including punishment). The exercise of sheer power is excluded by definition. Not even God can force someone to love him freely.

God created hell, he set the rules. He may not be forcing us to love him, but he is most definitely threatening us to love him.

How is throwing someone into hell (which is what God will be doing- we won't be jumping in there) considered punishment, especially if it's for eternity? How is that not sadistic and evil? Nobody deserves that sort of thing. Even Hitler was more humane with his executions.

[OnceConvinced]

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I don't know which is true. I fervently hope MacDonald's universalism is correct. What I do know is that if hell is populated, it will by those who refuse to leave.

What, so people would prefer to suffer torment than accept God? They'd rather stay there? Are you for real?

So what do you believe about hell. Do you think it's only temporary? If so then I would say, yes that's punishment. But if it's death then it's just pure execution. It's a way for God to rid the world of all evil, nothing more.

If God is good, he will do whatever can be done. Even then, I think people could refuse his love. Pride, remember, is the most deadly sin of all.

Ah yes, pride. God is the most proud being of all.

[allansmith]

And still others claim that Jesus taught that the unfaithful will spend eternity in torment.

Isn't that Lewis's option?

Jesus is unclear, in my view. "All that the Father gives me will come to me". "All things have been given to me." "If I am lifted up, I will draw all men to me." These verses sound pretty universal to me. Or consider the phrase "everlasting punishment": "everlasting" is aionion, which means age-long, not everlasting. The word for punishment, kolasis, is related to the word 'to prune'. ie. It's not retributive punishment, but remedial. Similarly, the fire is often a refining fire.

On the other hand, Jesus says some very grim things about sheep and goats, being locked out of the party, being on the broad road leading to destruction etc.

I commend you for your honesty. Could you not look at the alternatives in light of what you know or think that you know about God from the scriptures, and from nature and at least come up with a most likely scenario?

It's quite possible that God doesn't know the ultimate outcome either. If Christ, the very image of God, humbled himself to become a man, the Father might also surrender much of his power when dealing with us. For us to have true freedom, God must willingly limit his, or so it seems to me. Doesn't human freedom mean the future is indeterminate, even for God? I don't know. Just a suggestion.

But then again, you also fervently hope that there really is an afterlife. If you are honest with the evidence, you have to admit that no one really knows about this either.

Absolutely. I say this all the time. I haven't a clue what happens when I die, but I do know there's only one thing worth hoping for, and that's a perfectly good God. I live my life in the light of that hope.

I think that people are more sensible than that.

Let's hope so, but I've seen perfectly sensible people sink into pretty profound hells, even here on earth. Haven't you?

Not that I am disagreeing necessarily, but do you have anything to back up that assessment? I thought that blaspheming the Holy Spirit was the unforgivable sin.

God offers us forgiveness. He offers us a share in his divine life, his Holy Spirit. Pride rejects this offer, and so blasphemes God's spirit. Pride says, "I am so clever I know God doesn't exist. Even if he does, I am so good I need no forgiveness. What's more, if he does exist, I'll be the one judging God!"

The rejection of God's forgiveness is unforgivable, by definition.

Perhaps you should at least entertain the idea that there really is no evidence to dole out.

Not at all. That would be to deny the only hope that's worth having. It's just as likely that I'm blind to the evidence. I've also found, as I begin to live a life consistent with that hope, that more and more 'evidence' pops up. Little glimpses of light that mean a lot to me, but nothing to you. I think we must faithfully and obediently walk the dark road towards the dawn. If we do, the further we go, the lighter it gets.

I would venture to guess that God never takes your sage advice. Are you really sure that He is even listening?

Am I sure he's listening? No. How could I be? Again, I set off in the dark, heading for the light I hope is there. This I have found, take it or leave it. The further I go, the better.

One really good reason for His apparent silence would be His non-existence. Why not take that as a working hypothesis until you find a better explanation?

Because it's ugly as sin, and I love beauty. The no-God 'hypothesis' is literally hopeless in the end.

[allansmith]

It's so.. pagan and mythical.

And, IMO, it is so so false.

It's the sort of thing a good God would do, and nothing but a good God is worth hoping for.

Why do you refuse to hope for the best? (And please, don't come out with tedious bosh about 'evidence' or 'the problem of pain'.)

[allansmith]

It's astounding all right. If by astounding you mean unbelievable. Or maybe incomprehensible. Dare I say nonsensical?

God makes something out of nothing. Next, he makes order out of chaos. Then he makes living things out of non-living. Then conscious things out of unconscious. Then self-conscious things, namely us humans. Then morally aware things. Then, the crowning glory, in Christ God makes the mortal, immortal. He makes the human, divine.

Each step is a lifting up. Each step is utterly unprecedented and incomprehensible.

You find it nonsensical? Of course you do! Did you expect to understand?

[allansmith]

If there were a God he would certainly exist beyond the realm of our temporal senses making any contact with him "nonsensical".

Well spotted. As Paul says "no one has seen God, nor can he be seen..."

[allansmith]

It's still not a choice to go to hell. What you are trying to do is relieve God of the burden of responsibility for our executions.

I've seen people choosing to stay in a hell on earth. Haven't you? What's the difference? This is God's judgment: "You can ruin yourself, if you so choose." Using emotive terms like 'execution' doesn't help the discussion.

If you punish your child you don't say "Well Johnny, you did the bad thing so that means you wanted me to punish you." We all know that Johnny didn't want to be punished. Punishment is a consequence, not a choice.

Good point. Maybe hell is both misery that we are too proud to leave, and God's redemptive punishment that encourages us to leave.

Your logic that by us rejecting God we are choosing a particular road is just plain wrong.

You either heading for home, or you're leaving home. "He who is not for me is against me."

God created hell, he set the rules. He may not be forcing us to love him, but he is most definitely threatening us to love him.

Suppose a mother says to her child, "If you don't drink, you'll die of thirst." Is that a threat?

How is throwing someone into hell (which is what God will be doing- we won't be jumping in there) considered punishment, especially if it's for eternity? How is that not sadistic and evil? Nobody deserves that sort of thing. Even Hitler was more humane with his executions.

Does an unrepentant heroin addict leap into that particular hell? Does he choose to stay there? If you drag him out by force, will he be cured?

God has decreed that there is a place called "drug addiction" where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. He will cast you into that evil place if you make certain choices. This is another way of saying "God has given you freedom, and freedom brings responsibility and consequence."

Can you escape this evil place called "addiction"? Yes. If you repent of your sins. ie. If you get off the heroin.

Can you escape from hell? Yes. If you repent of your sins.