Could Jesus be Satan?

[Zzyzx]

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According to the bible Satan was "cast down to Earth" – and later a "messiah" shows up claiming to know a great deal about "god", doing "miracles" (supernatural forms of magic), calling himself by the common name Jesus, and is accepted as being "god" (or "son of god") by followers.

Satan, according to lore, is credited with supernatural powers AND a lust for power, a great ego, a deceptive nature, and with being the epitome of evil. As such "he" could easily arrange a "virgin birth", could he not? With supernatural powers couldn't he also walk on water, feed multitudes from a lunchbox, turn water into wine, preach convincingly, and even arrange a "resurrection"?

Since all of that could be done by any competent supernatural being of great power, what is there to insure that Jesus and Satan are not the same being?

One might cite a bible story about Jesus and Satan being in the same place (atop a high mountain), but there were no known witnesses and there is no such mountain (from which all kingdoms of the Earth can be seen from a single point on a sphere). Thus, Satan could well have made up such a story (and in the role of Jesus, tell followers that it had happened – or have them informed by another source).

Couldn't ALL the events attributed to Jesus or God be the actions of a "Satan"? How can one tell for sure which supernatural entity produced what effects?

Couldn't "Satan" arrange for the bible to be written by worshipers / followers / believers? How can anyone be certain that they are not worshiping Satan.

What would be Satan's motivation to create a Jesus character and play the role of "the son of god"? EGO and a desire to be worshipped.

[melodious]

I don't understand the point you are trying to make; however, whatever that may be, it seems as though Satan is winning over Jesus. As you say wars, divisiveness, violence, pain, suffering are common – and "god" dose nothing to prevent them (and if anything, encourages them). Where is Jesus when you need him? Wasn't he supposed to come to Earth to "save" mankind?

Instead of love (the Jesus way according to some) there are (as you say) wars, divisiveness, violence, pain, suffering (Satan's way). Satan 1, Gods 0

All these posts, Zz, are cracking me up (not just yours; everybody's). Since when have people gone to war to defend Satan? Since when have Satanists ever promoted war and killing to rid the world of "infidels"? We don't! So put the blame where the blame belongs - on "god fearing" religions.

I know where the twisting path of this type of psychological argument goes - no where, really; just a theory to piss off Christians and "godly" religionists. However, that's fine with me, but first one must ask themselves if Satan is really the "bad guy" who would want to do all this stuff to humankind anyway. Personally, I see Satan as a kind of Prometheus of Judeo-Christianity. Satan gives humans knowledge, wisdom (snakes have always been symbols attributed to wisdom), logic, reason, smithcraft, art/music, sexual freedom, etc... all the good things about civilization.

So it was the Devil who stole this "fire" from God and gave humans a fighting chance against the tyranny of some arbitrary god, and it is him (in some mythical use of the word) that we have to thank. He gave humans the power to think for themselves - to be their own god if they so choose to have the strength to be. Look at all the blood spilt in the Bible, and how much of it is attributed to Satan? Nil, zero, zip! Even Job's little horror story is really at the hand of God, not Satan. Hell, God kills his own son, which according to doctrine, is actually himself. What kind of twisted sadistic masochism is this? What, to save the very humans he plotted once to destroy? Why? Because he did not want them to evolve to his equal and shove him out of the equation, which is exactly what we have done today in the now "thinking person's" atheistic age.

It is our time now, my little atheist friends, our time to call the shots and throw down the glove in defense of logic and reason!!! It is the Age of the Sons and Daughters of Seth, or Satan! It is our time to set heaven aflame and cast out the old gods who have outgrown their welcome!

The Nine Satanic Statements

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!

2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!

3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!

4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!

5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!

6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!

7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,� has become the most vicious animal of all!

8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!

9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

- "The Satanic Bible" by Anton Szandor LaVey

In the spirit of the serpent - M

P.S. God represents slavery to one's own creations, which is exactly what God has become, for we have now sent him his dismissal notice that says his services are no longer needed. The Devil represents liberation from one's own creations, and since humans created their "gods," it is the same freedom and liberty that humans used to create them that will also serve as the power to destroy them.

[Chay]

Why does that surprise you? I would be surprised if any christian takes the bait on this one. I know I wouldn't waste my time.

Chay

I'm surprised that no Christian has yet come in and quoted this scripture:

Matt 12:25
He knew what they were thinking and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is destroyed, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.

It's usually the scripture used to argue that Jesus cannot be Satan, because that would mean Christianity would no longer exist as it would have destroyed itself years ago. They further argue that Satan only wants evil so nobody would be doing good works in his name.

Of course that argument is easily refuted if you consider that maybe Satan only wants us to think Christianiy is good. It may be that the real God is another God and that by following Christianity you might be condemning yourself. I'm sure Muslims would agree on that one.

[Zzyzx]

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Why does that surprise you? I would be surprised if any christian takes the bait on this one. I know I wouldn't waste my time.

"Christian takes the bait . . . "???

Are Christians not capable of debating the issue or answering questions?

Perhaps that is understandable for a position that can cite no evidence that any of the supposed invisible, undetectable super beings exist.

[Chay]

Z,

I don't feel the need to debate the Bible as it stands on its own. There are constant reminders around us on this earth that speak volumes for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. If your deaf and blind then you won't and can't understand. So, it's a waste of my time to try and convince someone who is already convinced of something else to try and understand what he/she can not.

Have a great day.

Chay

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Why does that surprise you? I would be surprised if any christian takes the bait on this one. I know I wouldn't waste my time.

"Christian takes the bait . . . "???

Are Christians not capable of debating the issue or answering questions?

Perhaps that is understandable for a position that can cite no evidence that any of the supposed invisible, undetectable super beings exist.

[Fisherking]

According to the bible Satan was "cast down to Earth" – and later a "messiah" shows up claiming to know a great deal about "god", doing "miracles" (supernatural forms of magic), calling himself by the common name Jesus, and is accepted as being "god" (or "son of god") by followers.

Satan, according to lore, is credited with supernatural powers AND a lust for power, a great ego, a deceptive nature, and with being the epitome of evil. As such "he" could easily arrange a "virgin birth", could he not? With supernatural powers couldn't he also walk on water, feed multitudes from a lunchbox, turn water into wine, preach convincingly, and even arrange a "resurrection"?

Since all of that could be done by any competent supernatural being of great power, what is there to insure that Jesus and Satan are not the same being?

- because" According to the bible Satan was "cast down to Earth" – and later a messiah shows up claiming to know a great deal about [G]od, doing miracles, calling himself by the common name Jesus, and is accepted as being [G]od (or son of [G]od) by followers."

"Satan [according to this same bible]...is credited with supernatural powers AND a lust for power, a great ego, a deceptive nature, and with being the epitome of evil"

Jesus on the other hand "walk[ed] on water, [fed] multitudes..., turn[ed] water into wine, preach[ed] convincingly, and even [was] resurrect[ed]".

[Zzyzx]

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I don't feel the need to debate the Bible as it stands on its own.

Are you aware that this is a DEBATE site? Are you aware that not everyone accepts that "the bible stands on its own" – or is a source of truth – or is anything other than writings by religious followers or fanatics that cannot be shown to be anything more than myth or fable?

Those who are inclined to preach instead of debate may be more comfortable in Holy Huddle where they can preach to fellow god worshipers without the inconvenience of non-worshipers asking questions that they cannot answer openly and honestly.

There are constant reminders around us on this earth that speak volumes for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Most here probably "have eyes to see and ears to hear".

The "constant reminders around us" have far different meaning to those who appreciate nature without applying supernatural "explanations" for the phenomena we observe.

If your deaf and blind then you won't and can't understand.

I am unaware of any blind or deaf members – though I have friends who are one or the other.

So, it's a waste of my time to try and convince someone who is already convinced of something else to try and understand what he/she can not.

It is certainly a waste of time to attempt to convince a discerning or skeptical person by repeating opinions, hearsay and stories from religious promotional literature.

What is your objective in posting in this forum?

Have a great day.

Thanks and same to you.

[Zzyzx]

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Jesus on the other hand "walk[ed] on water, [fed] multitudes..., turn[ed] water into wine, preach[ed] convincingly, and even [was] resurrect[ed]".

I have no doubt that many believe all those stories are literally true.

Are you aware that many do NOT believe any of those stories are literally true?

What all of the stories LACK is evidence that they are true. Yes, there are stories about thousands of different "gods" performing all sorts of marvelous feats – NONE of which can be verified. Your favorite "god" is no more suppored by evidence than others. Fervent belief by multitudes does NOT insure accuracy or honesty.

This is a DEBATE site where those who make claims are expected to verify claims (with something more substantial than "the bible says so") – see forum rule #5. Can you demonstrate that ANY of the claims you make above are true?

Preaching is different from debate in that scripture may be "proof" in preaching. That may be appropriate in Holy Huddle where statements such as the above can be made without being questioned.

If you wish to debate, as is the intent of this sub-forum, kindly provide substantiation that Jesus walked on water, fed multitudes, turned water into wine, preached convincingly, or was "resurrected".

I am particularly interested in ANY information, from sources other than religious promotional literature, regarding the supposed "resurrection". Can you provide any such evidence that a dead body came back to life after three days in the grave as claimed in the bible story?

[Fisherking]

Jesus on the other hand "walk[ed] on water, [fed] multitudes..., turn[ed] water into wine, preach[ed] convincingly, and even [was] resurrect[ed]".

I have no doubt that many believe all those stories are literally true.

Are you aware that many do NOT believe any of those stories are literally true?

The question I replied to did not ask if the stories were literally true or not.

According to the bible Satan was "cast down to Earth" – and later a "messiah" shows up claiming to know a great deal about "god", doing "miracles" (supernatural forms of magic), calling himself by the common name Jesus, and is accepted as being "god" (or "son of god") by followers.

Satan, according to lore, is credited with supernatural powers AND a lust for power, a great ego, a deceptive nature, and with being the epitome of evil. As such "he" could easily arrange a "virgin birth", could he not? With supernatural powers couldn't he also walk on water, feed multitudes from a lunchbox, turn water into wine, preach convincingly, and even arrange a "resurrection"?

Since all of that could be done by any competent supernatural being of great power, what is there to insure that Jesus and Satan are not the same being?

- because" According to the bible Satan was "cast down to Earth" – and later a messiah shows up claiming to know a great deal about [G]od, doing miracles, calling himself by the common name Jesus, and is accepted as being [G]od (or son of [G]od) by followers."

"Satan [according to this same bible]...is credited with supernatural powers AND a lust for power, a great ego, a deceptive nature, and with being the epitome of evil"

Jesus on the other hand "walk[ed] on water, [fed] multitudes..., turn[ed] water into wine, preach[ed] convincingly, and even [was] resurrect[ed]".

[strike]What all of the stories LACK is evidence that they are true. Yes, there are stories about thousands of different "gods" performing all sorts of marvelous feats – NONE of which can be verified. Your favorite "god" is no more suppored by evidence than others. Fervent belief by multitudes does NOT insure accuracy or honesty[/strike]

(off topic rant)

[strike]This is a DEBATE site where those who make claims are expected to verify claims (with something more substantial than "the bible says so") – see forum rule #5. Can you demonstrate that ANY of the claims you make above are true? [/strike]

(off topic rant)

[strike]Preaching is different from debate in that scripture may be "proof" in preaching. That may be appropriate in Holy Huddle where statements such as the above can be made without being questioned.[/strike]

(off topic mantra)

If you wish to debate, as is the intent of this sub-forum, kindly provide substantiation that Jesus walked on water, fed multitudes, turned water into wine, preached convincingly, or was "resurrected".

If you wish to debate those things, start another thread. The question I responded to was:
"Since all of that could be done by any competent supernatural being of great power, what is there to insure that Jesus and Satan are not the same being?"

I am particularly interested in ANY information, from sources other than religious promotional literature, regarding the supposed "resurrection". Can you provide any such evidence that a dead body came back to life after three days in the grave as claimed in the bible story?

Maybe there is a confusion between this thread and a different one that asks those question?

I'll finish answering the hypotheticals, which basically have the same answer:

Couldn't ALL the events attributed to Jesus or God be the actions of a "Satan"? How can one tell for sure which supernatural entity produced what effects?

As I answered above (with basically your own words), the same book that attributes events to Jesus also attribute Satan with his. We can tell the difference because the stories in the bible say there is a difference. If one could produce some other ancient text that portrayed Satan and the good guy and Jesus as the bad guy, this might be an issue. If one were using the bible as a reference to the nature of Jesus and Satan (as it appears the OP does), all one has is the bible reporting the nature of Jesus and Satan.

Couldn't "Satan" arrange for the bible to be written by worshipers / followers / believers? How can anyone be certain that they are not worshiping Satan.

Why then did Satan speak of himself as the evil one if he did indeed write the bible?

[Zzyzx]

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Jesus on the other hand "walk[ed] on water, [fed] multitudes..., turn[ed] water into wine, preach[ed] convincingly, and even [was] resurrect[ed]".

I have no doubt that many believe all those stories are literally true.

Are you aware that many do NOT believe any of those stories are literally true?

The question I replied to did not ask if the stories were literally true or not.

Do you not realize that in an attempt to address the issue you DID make those claims in the quote above? Did you NOT say that Jesus walked on water, etc?

If you do not wish to debate the issues DON'T make the claims. Making a claim then running away is not debate – it is preaching.

Couldn't ALL the events attributed to Jesus or God be the actions of a "Satan"? How can one tell for sure which supernatural entity produced what effects?

As I answered above (with basically your own words), the same book that attributes events to Jesus also attribute Satan with his. We can tell the difference because the stories in the bible say there is a difference.

Are you saying that what the bible says is true because the bible says it is true?

Have you demonstrated that any of your claims are true?

If one could produce some other ancient text that portrayed Satan and the good guy and Jesus as the bad guy, this might be an issue. If one were using the bible as a reference to the nature of Jesus and Satan (as it appears the OP does), all one has is the bible reporting the nature of Jesus and Satan.

Does the bible indicate that "Satan" is supernatural?

Does the bible indicate that "Satan" is a deceiver"?

Does the bible indicate that "Satan" is evil?

Those are the ONLY characteristics of "Satan" that are implied by the OP. I propose that there is no reason that a SUPERNATURAL being who is a DECEIVER and who is EVIL could not impersonate a "god" in the role of "Jesus" and DECEIVE humans into worshiping a false idol / icon / god.

Can anyone demonstrate why "Satan" could NOT impersonate anyone or any "god" he chose? Is there any reason to conclude that a supernatural "Satan" could NOT impregnate a virgin human female, walk on water, feed multitudes, turn water into wine, arrange a "resurrection"?

If it is possible, how can anyone be certain that the object of their worship is NOT a supernatural, evil, deceiver?

Couldn't "Satan" arrange for the bible to be written by worshipers / followers / believers? How can anyone be certain that they are not worshiping Satan.

Why then did Satan speak of himself as the evil one if he did indeed write the bible?

In the roll of "Jesus" Satan could say anything he chose about an evil being that he did not claim to be.

Aren't we speaking of a supernatural being who has great powers and (presumably) great intelligence? Couldn't such a being be very convincing in the roll of "Jesus" – including condemning "evil" or "Satan"?

Isn't "Satan" capable of deceiving humans?

[OnceConvinced]

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Why then did Satan speak of himself as the evil one if he did indeed write the bible?

In the roll of "Jesus" Satan could say anything he chose about an evil being that he did not claim to be.

Aren't we speaking of a supernatural being who has great powers and (presumably) great intelligence? Couldn't such a being be very convincing in the roll of "Jesus" – including condemning "evil" or "Satan"?

Isn't "Satan" capable of deceiving humans?

This would be why Satan is considered a master manipulator. What better way to make people think you're not Satan by putting yourself down and condemning yourself? Pure genius.