Many failed predictions of Jesus return..

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Elijah John
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Many failed predictions of Jesus return..

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

Matthew 16:27-28 New International Version (NIV)
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Fathers glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
There have been many failed predictions of the "2nd coming of Christ". Most notably, Charles Taze Russell who predicted Jesus would return in 1914. When he didn't return, the prediction was revised to mean an "invisible return".

For debate, in light of the quoted passage from Matthew, was Jesus the first person to mistakenly predict his return?

How is Jesus prediction different from any of the others who have mistakenly predicted the time of his return?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Checkpoint
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Re: Many failed predictions of Jesus return..

Post #221

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 214 by Elijah John]
Perhaps this article will put things into perspective, that Jesus and the New Testament writers in general, expected the end of days to occur in their own lifetime/generation.
Perhaps not.

My focus on this thread is on what Jesus said and on what Jesus meant by what he said and the way he said it.

For me, it is not about the expectations of others, whoever they are.

Jesus has always been misunderstood and misread, by his enemies and by his friends.

So, as far as I am concerned, it is no big deal but par for the course.
Now will you reconsider your position?
In view of what I have just said...you can fill in the blanks!

Elijah John
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Re: Many failed predictions of Jesus return..

Post #222

Post by Elijah John »

Checkpoint wrote: My focus on this thread is on what Jesus said and on what Jesus meant by what he said and the way he said it.

For me, it is not about the expectations of others, whoever they are.
Except for the expectations of Jesus himself, and most of the NT authors. There is a detectable theme here, of immanent expectation of "these last days" "coming quickly" "soon" not hundreds and thousands of years removed from the first century AD. The Schweitzer article ties the various, (not isolated) verses together as evidence.

Do you consider stretching the definition of the word "generation" refutation for each and every verse that Schweitzer presents in evidence?

Perhaps we could go over them in the thread devoted to the Schweitzer article also on this forum.

viewtopic.php?t=34262

One by one, or perhaps you can you show us why they do not, taken together, constitute a definite theme that undermines orthodoxy.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Checkpoint
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Re: Many failed predictions of Jesus return..

Post #223

Post by Checkpoint »

Elijah John wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: My focus on this thread is on what Jesus said and on what Jesus meant by what he said and the way he said it.

For me, it is not about the expectations of others, whoever they are.
Except for the expectations of Jesus himself, and most of the NT authors. There is a detectable theme here, of immanent expectation of "these last days" "coming quickly" "soon" not hundreds and thousands of years removed from the first century AD. The Schweitzer article ties the various, (not isolated) verses together as evidence.

Do you consider stretching the definition of the word "generation" refutation for each and every verse that Schweitzer presents in evidence?

Perhaps we could go over them in the thread devoted to the Schweitzer article also on this forum.

viewtopic.php?t=34262

One by one, or perhaps you can you show us why they do not, taken together, constitute a definite theme that undermines orthodoxy.
Thanks, but no thanks, on both counts.

I know something of what I do know well and what I don't know well enough, and generally engage only in those topics I know best.

I entered this thread in response to your specific op debate question:
For debate, in light of the quoted passage from Matthew, was Jesus the first person to mistakenly predict his return?

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Re: Many failed predictions of Jesus return..

Post #224

Post by Elijah John »

Checkpoint wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: My focus on this thread is on what Jesus said and on what Jesus meant by what he said and the way he said it.

For me, it is not about the expectations of others, whoever they are.
Except for the expectations of Jesus himself, and most of the NT authors. There is a detectable theme here, of immanent expectation of "these last days" "coming quickly" "soon" not hundreds and thousands of years removed from the first century AD. The Schweitzer article ties the various, (not isolated) verses together as evidence.

Do you consider stretching the definition of the word "generation" refutation for each and every verse that Schweitzer presents in evidence?

Perhaps we could go over them in the thread devoted to the Schweitzer article also on this forum.

viewtopic.php?t=34262

One by one, or perhaps you can you show us why they do not, taken together, constitute a definite theme that undermines orthodoxy.
Thanks, but no thanks, on both counts.

I know something of what I do know well and what I don't know well enough, and generally engage only in those topics I know best.

I entered this thread in response to your specific op debate question:
For debate, in light of the quoted passage from Matthew, was Jesus the first person to mistakenly predict his return?
Fair enough. If you don't want to participate in the linked thread, I'm listing the relevant verses here for you or anyone else who wants to tackle them.

Among the verses Schweitzer uses to tie it all together.

- Matthew 24-34 and Luke 21.32.
-Revelation 1.3
-1 Corinthians 7.29
-Hebrews 1.2
-Matthew 16.28
-Mark 9.1
-Luke 9.27
-Revelation 22.6,7,10,12,20
-Matthew 23.36
-1Peter 1.20
-1 Peter 4.7

These verses are relevant to the OP in establishing the context of the times, that of the prevailing expectation of the end of days in the lifetimes of the New Testament writers.

And Matthew 16.28 fits that context.

Could be wrong, but I doubt that the refutation you attempted for Matthew 16.28 would fit all those other verses, which combined create a very solid argument that "Matthew" as well as most of the other NT writers, (including Paul), and by extention, Jesus himself, were clearly mistaken in predicting the timing of the apocalypse.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Many failed predictions of Jesus return..

Post #225

Post by PinSeeker »

-Matthew 24-34 and Luke 21.32.
-Revelation 1.3
-1 Corinthians 7.29
-Hebrews 1.2
-Matthew 16.28
-Mark 9.1
-Luke 9.27
-Revelation 22.6,7,10,12,20
-Matthew 23.36
-1Peter 1.20
-1 Peter 4.7

"These verses are relevant to the OP in establishing the context of the times, that of the prevailing expectation of the end of days in the lifetimes of the New Testament writers."


It is true -- I agree with you -- that, generally speaking, the prevailing expectation of the end of days was that they would occur in the lifetimes of the New Testament... well, hearers, not the writers. The same thing could be said of the "prevailing expectation" at any time over the past 2000+ years, and that will continue to be the case. And that's not a bad thing; we should all live now as if Jesus will make His return in the next five minutes.

However -- and making a point that here that I've already made at least a couple of times -- if I engage in a discussion with talk about... something, does/do the receiver/receivers of my comments get to determine the context in which my comments are meant? That's a rhetorical question, but of course the answer is no.

So, applying that to Matthew 16, Jesus did not have in view, in this particular passage, His second coming. At all. The whole of Matthew 16 is about salvation. And the point is made in three different ways, first to the Pharisees, who are unable to discern the times (because it has not been given them by God to do so), then to Peter, who is only able to confess that Jesus is the Christ because of God's opening his eyes and revealing it to him, and finally to the disciples as a group by telling all of them (although he addresses Peter specifically) what He must do to finish His work and make God's salvation possible.



"And Matthew 16.28 fits that context."

Clearly, it does not.



Could be wrong, but I doubt that the refutation you attempted for Matthew 16.28 would fit all those other verses, which combined create a very solid argument that "Matthew" as well as most of the other NT writers, (including Paul), and by extention, Jesus himself, were clearly mistaken in predicting the timing of the apocalypse.

Yes, you are wrong. I've already addressed some of the citations above, but I'll do so again while addressing the others also:



Revelation 1.3
You seem to be under the mistaken expression that Revelation is merely about Jesus's triumphant return (His second coming, as it were). That's not the case. "Prophecy," as it is used in the Bible, does not denote a prediction of future events; it denotes the the relating God's word to man -- "Thus says the Lord." Revelation is about the whole of human history from beginning to end. The time is indeed near -- even at hand -- throughout all the generations since John's writing. You're reading it in the Dispensational light, which is... well, the wrong light to read it in. Revelation is the story of history, from beginning to end, and that God is always in control (He is the Great I AM, after all), even though it may not seem that way at times, and that in the end, Jesus... wins. So in reading the words of Revelation 1:3, yes, because God knows what's happening and is in total control, coupled with the fact that no matter what happens, Jesus wins (and we are co-heirs with Him) in the end, we can be comforted and blessed right now, no matter when or in what generation that "right now" is.

1 Corinthians 7.29
The purpose of Paul's first letter to the Corinthian church is in large part to encourage Christians to attend to the kinds of daily affairs that would be -- would be -- unimportant if Christ were returning within weeks or months. Thus Paul provides practical teaching concerning marriage, what type of food to eat at a dinner party, collecting money for the needy, and future travel plans. Like other NT writers, Paul considers all of time from the Cross forward to be the "last days" and counsels Christians to live in the light of Christ's certain return at an unforeseen moment. Paul's point here is simply that the form of this world, or its day-to-day affairs, is not eternal. Christians should prioritize their human relationships, marital possessions, and worldly dealings accordingly.

Hebrews 1.2
Here, too, "last days" is all of time from the Cross forward. Nothing is to be read into that concerning how long this "last days" period really is, but merely that it is of utmost importance to always be living in light of Christ's death and resurrection and certain return.

Matthew 16.28
We've discussed this one at length. Christ is not speaking of His return.

Mark 9.1, Luke 9.27
Mark's and Luke's recounting of the same events Matthew is recounting in Matthew 16:27-28. Just as in Matthew 16, Christ's return is not in view, here, either.

Revelation 22.6,7,10,12,20
What I said above concerning these "last days" applies here, also. No need to repeat.

Matthew 23.36
What I have said above certainly relates here, also, but what Jesus is saying here is that, rather than respond to the unique opportunity to receive their Messiah (Him) and participate in the kingdom of heaven, the religious people of "this generation" would continue to spill innocent blood -- now that of Jesus and His followers -- and so face the wrath of God. Jesus's return is not in view here, either.

Are you sensing a pattern here? ;)

1 Peter 1.20
"Last times" equals "Last Days" -- all of time from the Cross forward. See above.

1 Peter 4.7
"The end of all things is at hand" dose not mean Peter was expecting Christ to return in a few weeks or months (or even years). It means, rather, that all the major events in God's great salvation plan -- culminating in the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ and the outpuring of the Spirit at Pentecost -- had already occurred. Therefore Christ's return could happen at any time; it was "at hand" in Peter's day, and it still is today. But the imminent arrival of the end is not a call simply to look into heaven and wait for Jesus's return; instead, believers are to be self-controlled and sober-minded, so that they may be devoted to prayer and maximize their usefulness in God's kingdom.



You can keep on banging your head against that wall as long as you want, my friend. I'd stop it if I were you, but you are, after all is said and done, your own man.

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Re: Many failed predictions of Jesus return..

Post #226

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 222 by Elijah John]
Could be wrong, but I doubt that the refutation you attempted for Matthew 16.28 would fit all those other verses, which combined create a very solid argument that "Matthew" as well as most of the other NT writers, (including Paul), and by extention, Jesus himself, were clearly mistaken in predicting the timing of the apocalypse.
When it comes to issues of this nature, each poster has a mindset.

We either look for ammunition to attack with, or we look for answers as our defence that will refute.

A stalemate results, with each side concluding they have the truth, the facts that have successfully refuted error.

None of those verses faze me, just as none of what I say about any of them fazes you.

:(

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Re: Many failed predictions of Jesus return..

Post #227

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 224 by Checkpoint]

As my friend Marco would say then, "go well".
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Many failed predictions of Jesus return..

Post #228

Post by Danmark »

Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 222 by Elijah John]
Could be wrong, but I doubt that the refutation you attempted for Matthew 16.28 would fit all those other verses, which combined create a very solid argument that "Matthew" as well as most of the other NT writers, (including Paul), and by extention, Jesus himself, were clearly mistaken in predicting the timing of the apocalypse.
When it comes to issues of this nature, each poster has a mindset.

We either look for ammunition to attack with, or we look for answers as our defence that will refute.

A stalemate results, with each side concluding they have the truth, the facts that have successfully refuted error.
This is a false equivalency and also perhaps an admission that for some the evangelical Christian belief system persists despite what the Bible says. That belief system is based on doctrine and tradition, not the Bible.
I've compiled verses, some of which show clearly that Jesus and Paul declared the world's end was imminent. Others show the outrageous admonitions they gave which only make sense if the end was near: Not marrying and hating or abandoning one's family and even one's own life:

Matthew 16:24-28

Then Jesus told his disciples, If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 24:34, 36
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
.
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

Mark 13:30
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Luke 21:32
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place.

Luke 14:26
If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Mark 10:21
You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.

1 Corinthians 7:1
It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.

Matthew 24:19
And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Now, you can take any of these passages, Mark 13:30 for example, and look at them in any of the dozens of translations, and you get the same clear meaning, from the ESV to a literal English translation from the Greek:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=DLNT

1948 years late and counting....

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Re: Many failed predictions of Jesus return..

Post #229

Post by Danmark »

PinSeeker wrote:
Matthew 16.28
We've discussed this one at length. Christ is not speaking of His return.
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Could have fooled me. I guess words don't matter.

Maybe it's clearer in context:

Matthew 16:24-28

Then Jesus told his disciples, If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Nope. Same thing. Maybe he's talking about making schnitzel, tho' I don't see how.

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Re: Many failed predictions of Jesus return..

Post #230

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 226 by Danmark]

A good take that also puts things into Scriptural context and the context of the times. Jesus radical imperatives are what Schweitzer called an "interim ethic". That is more evidence that Jesus too, expected the Apocalypse in his own generation.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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