Does Science Debunk The Bible?

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Does Science Debunk The Bible?

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Post by Data »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:36 pm No Science does debunk the Bible.
For the purpose of this debate science is defined as the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained; a branch of knowledge; a systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject and even knowledge of any kind. Debunk is defined as to expose the falseness or hollowness of (a myth, idea, or belief) as well as to reduce the inflated reputation of (someone), especially by ridicule.

Question for debate: Is this true? Does science debunk the Bible and if so, how?
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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

Post #271

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Yes. This is another aspect of evasions, explanations and Making Stuff Up. The apologist might try to fiddle the order of creation and the details that fit the Babylonian snow -dome cosmos rather than the heliocentric system and round earth and trying to make'6 days the age of the universe (as current science reckons it or did until recently) divided into seven, though earth - creation is just 4 billion years and Life 2 billion, I recall. Though the cosmos being created after animal and plant life needs a whole lot more invention like the cloud cover to make it fit science.

But others simply deny the science, though I know of few creationists or Young Earthers who try to argue that the sun really was made later than the earth and the 'light' was Cosmic light with background Cosmic whisper supposed to be a remnant of that. Never mind the Bible says, dark and light, morning and evening. But we are in deep denial here.

Don't cue, please :mrgreen: the nit - pick apologetic. Like picking up holes in science (anything from corrupted C14 samples to doubts about human sub -species) and acting like it debunks evolution, or a 200 year revision in Pharonic dating and arguing that all history is wrong.

There's also a neat little ploy of ignoring the Big Picture (1) which is cumulative doubts, problems and stuff that is frankly wrong. I mean, each problem is supposed to a single thing that is questionable as though everything else was fine. If that were the case one might excuse much of it, but when so much is just wrong and a glaring contradiction, even the explainable stuff does not deserve benefit of doubt.

This is why I say the case is done and dusted and further discussion just findfs more crimes to add to the indightment. But the apologists want benefit of doubt to be extended to this or that problem in isolation. Never mind the real howlers which they ignore or deny anyway.

Bottom line, nobody who was not already buying into the Bible claims could be convinced by it, but buy - in has been successfully sold in the West for a long,long time, and is still being peddled.

Cue the 'we need it, true or not' apologetic (with or without partisan politics) or the 'metaphorically true' gambit. But as I say, metaphorically true'means 'not true at all', and 'we need it' is an arguable claim on its'own.

(1) Big Picture used to be a meme in the old days bit I found out it was Theist - speak for 'Faith' (ignore the problems and just believe all of it).

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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

Post #272

Post by Diogenes »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #271]
Exactly! Inherent in my last was a challenge... for apologists to name some natural phenomenon described in the Bible that was contrary to the 'wisdom' of the day, but turned out to be an accurate description.

Instead of accepting reality, truth, the common sense appreciation of science and legitimate history, apologists engage in clumsy mental gymnastics to misinterpret the Bible, trying to turn its 'true meaning, along with 'sources' as inept as those of Ken Hamm and 'Answers in Genesis.' I've watched this silliness on the forum for years now... always the same pattern.

Some guy joins this forum all HOT with the latest 'clever' thing his pastor said, or some 'special' and brilliant 'new' explanation of why evolution is inferior to the Bible for explaining the diversity of species. They trot out this bogus 'truths' as if we've never heard it before and will be impressed with some 'expert' who doesn't even have a degree in the field he opines on.

Then comes the "science is a religion" and the conspiracy theories on how 'Biblical Truth' is suppressed by the academic 'elite.' And all this without a whiff of embarrassment. :|

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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

Post #273

Post by The Tanager »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #268]

I’m not asking for a simpler argument, but a clearer, less vague one, so that we can see what the objective bar should be and measure the Bible against that.

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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

Post #274

Post by The Tanager »

POI wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:04 pmBecause then you would only have the 'unscholarly' fringe group arguing a position in which the scholarly group would not address or even entertain. Otherwise, my prior points still stand unattested. (i.e.) a) plagiarism, b) madman, c) delusional, d) other
Yes, it would be helpful, but I asked why it is necessary. Why can’t there be a more rational position to take even though other non-fringe people want to argue for a less rational position?
POI wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:04 pmI just find it quite convenient that every claim, which would get knocked down by "science", has to be philosophical/metaphorical.
Confirmation bias is convenient. So is the truth. Responding to arguments with “that’s convenient” isn’t helpful or rational.
POI wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:04 pmYou merely side-stepped. What position(s) is/are most "reasonable"...? Genesis is literal or not? The Exodus did, or did not, happen? Jesus rose, or he didn't?
I didn’t sidestep anything. I have told you many times I’m not going to allow you to shift the question/burden.

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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

Post #275

Post by The Tanager »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:22 pmEasy question to answer, at least from the point of view that virtually nothing the Bible references about the universe, the Earth, the solar system does not reflect 1st and 2d millennia BCE understanding of nature. If an omniscient 'God' had written the Bible we would expect many descriptions of nature that seemed wrong or mysterious when written, but turned out to be accurate according to modern science.
Why would an omniscient God reveal to ancient societies the questions that modern scientific communities would be interested in? Why would God care more about making scientific knowledge available in these texts versus addressing how He wanted humans to live?

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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

Post #276

Post by POI »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:02 pm
POI wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:04 pmBecause then you would only have the 'unscholarly' fringe group arguing a position in which the scholarly group would not address or even entertain. Otherwise, my prior points still stand unattested. (i.e.) a) plagiarism, b) madman, c) delusional, d) other
Yes, it would be helpful, but I asked why it is necessary. Why can’t there be a more rational position to take even though other non-fringe people want to argue for a less rational position?
I've given a rational position, which is the author(s) of Genesis meant to take a non-fictional and literal position. I have given 10 references (as an example), for which you have waved away as opinion. Further, hermeneutic scholars have not settled what should instead be such an easily resolvable topic; (Genesis is literal or not?). Was "Noah's flood" meant to be a literal set of events, (yes or no)? Again, is God pleased with his messages to his people? We are NOT talking about Tolken, Shakespear, or any other purely human literary collection of works. We are instead talking about the Holy Bible. As stated, yet again, if hermeneutic scholars have not figured it out, after all of this time, it ain't happening. So no, without identifying the source of these messages, which you also acknowledge we have not identified, we have no means to resolve the matter.

Again, we do not know who wrote Genesis. Was it someone who plagiarized or borrowed from other circulating stories, or was it someone who was insane, or was it someone in self-deception, or other?
The Tanager wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:02 pm Responding to arguments with “that’s convenient” isn’t helpful or rational.
I did quite a bit more than that. I continue to see (3) mechanisms you use to protect the Bible.
The Tanager wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:02 pm
POI wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:04 pmYou merely side-stepped. What position(s) is/are most "reasonable"...? Genesis is literal or not? The Exodus did, or did not, happen? Jesus rose, or he didn't?
I didn’t sidestep anything. I have told you many times I’m not going to allow you to shift the question/burden.
Please recall the gumball analogy. Neither of us claim agnosticism to the claim of "odd" or "even". Further, I have repeatedly told you that 'science' cannot debunk the Bible, for you, which is because of your (3) protective mechanisms.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

Post #277

Post by POI »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:03 pm
Diogenes wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:22 pmEasy question to answer, at least from the point of view that virtually nothing the Bible references about the universe, the Earth, the solar system does not reflect 1st and 2d millennia BCE understanding of nature. If an omniscient 'God' had written the Bible we would expect many descriptions of nature that seemed wrong or mysterious when written, but turned out to be accurate according to modern science.
Why would an omniscient God reveal to ancient societies the questions that modern scientific communities would be interested in? Why would God care more about making scientific knowledge available in these texts versus addressing how He wanted humans to live?
Your responses remind me of a video I once watched:

In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

Post #278

Post by TRANSPONDER »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:01 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #268]

I’m not asking for a simpler argument, but a clearer, less vague one, so that we can see what the objective bar should be and measure the Bible against that.
I thought I'd explained the matter as clearly as i could, with several examples.
The Tanager wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:03 pm
Diogenes wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:22 pmEasy question to answer, at least from the point of view that virtually nothing the Bible references about the universe, the Earth, the solar system does not reflect 1st and 2d millennia BCE understanding of nature. If an omniscient 'God' had written the Bible we would expect many descriptions of nature that seemed wrong or mysterious when written, but turned out to be accurate according to modern science.
Why would an omniscient God reveal to ancient societies the questions that modern scientific communities would be interested in? Why would God care more about making scientific knowledge available in these texts versus addressing how He wanted humans to live?
That's not the problem.The problem is, why would an omniscient god misinform Moses about the order of creation, including day and hight created before the sun was, rather than give the right order that wouldn't look wrong when humans knew better?

This is why the more probable explanation is that it was written as a guess at creation by humans who really didn't know better.

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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

Post #279

Post by The Tanager »

[Replying to POI in post #276]

Yes, you gave a position argued by some scholars. I didn’t just waive that away as opinion, I noted that other scholars disagree. Why are you referencing those that agree with your conclusion versus those that disagree? You could have just as easily culled together 10 references from scholars that disagree with your position. The conclusion one should draw from this is that we’ve got to go beyond referencing one side of the debate and get into the actual reasons that are given.

You also continue to just claim this topic should be easily resolvable, when I’ve responded with why it shouldn’t be.

You also continue to just claim we need to know who wrote Genesis and have no other means to resolve the matter, which isn’t an oft-used point (if one at all) by scholars in the field, including those arguing for the literal interpretation.

You also continue to pop-psychologize about why I really believe the way I do, not for the reasons I’m offering but to simply protect the Bible.

I've responded to each of these points and, instead of responding to that, you are just repeating what you've already said. It looks like you’ve nothing new to add to this discussion, so thanks for sharing your thoughts.

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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

Post #280

Post by The Tanager »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:43 amI thought I'd explained the matter as clearly as i could, with several examples.
What isn’t clear is what the amount/type of inconsistencies is allowed before one chucks out the central piece of the text. All four texts agree there was a resurrection. If we have four witnesses of an ancient event that disagree on some specific side details, historians may chuck out the various details, but not the central event being discussed.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:43 amThat's not the problem.The problem is, why would an omniscient god misinform Moses about the order of creation, including day and hight created before the sun was, rather than give the right order that wouldn't look wrong when humans knew better?

This is why the more probable explanation is that it was written as a guess at creation by humans who really didn't know better.
Because it isn’t about the scientific order of creation and, even if someone took it as such, that's not going to get in the way of the truths God is trying to get across.

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