What about Satan?

[juliod]

Often, in these forums, we are debating whether or not prayer "works". This usually takes the form of the christians explaining away the fact that we can never seem to detect the influence of prayer. It's always "God doesn't do tests" or "God does what's best for you, not necessarily what you ask for" or "Sometimes god says no".

So let's try the opposition. Will Satan answer a prayer in an unambiguous fashion? If not, why not? Does Satan have any power in the world today? Does he have a will independant of YHWH?

We often hear from christians about Satan or demons influencing people, or people working for them. So it should be possible to interact with them in some way.

Is it possible to summon a demon? Can a person converse with Satan?

How about if I ask Satan to cause me to sin? For example, I do not drink alcohol. If I pray to Satan to make me an alcoholic, will he? If not, why not?

DanZ

[Dilettante]

If Satan is like a negative of God, everything that God is not, and if God listens to prayers, then Satan most certainly should pay no attention.

But then if god ignores my prayers (as he does) then should Satan be willing and ready to answer them?

DanZ

Not necessarily. It could be that:

a)The God which exists is not the Abrahamic God and doesn't intervene in human affairs (therefore there is no need for a "negative figure" to play the role of God's opponent).

b)There is no God-- or Satan.

c)Your prayers do not reach God for any number of reasons.

etc

The possibilities are not endless, but there are more than these I'm sure.

[juliod]

a)The God which exists is not the Abrahamic God

Ah, but this debate is specifically in the context of christianity. You'll note that I frequently write 'YHWH' instead of 'god".

b)There is no God-- or Satan.

Which is my position, and the only reasonable position.

c)Your prayers do not reach God for any number of reasons.

This would be a good explanation, but only if there were mainstream versions of christianity that say there is difficulty in communicating with god and/or Satan. In fact the opposite is true. Most christians say that god knows my thoughts, and most also believe he knows my thoughts before I think them.

The possibilities are not endless, but there are more than these I'm sure.

But are they other explanations? The only one I can identify is the "god doesn't exist" one.

DanZ

[Dilettante]

I have noticed your use of the tetragrammaton. You're right, that restricts the possibilities considerably. But it's not written in stone that only atheism or mainstream versions of Christianity can be right about Satan. Still there is more than one possibility:

a) Satan does not answer prayers, but instead tempts only those individual humans he chooses too (it's the "don't call us we'll call you" Satan).

b)Your prayers do reach God but he has chosen not to reveal himself empirically for reasons we cannot comprehend.

And of course, your favorite...

c)Neither God nor Satan exist.

[juliod]

Yes, but...

These three are really only two. Either C is true, or A and B are true. It's the same problem: both god and Satan ignore me. Both of them desire to remain hidden. Both act in ways that only believers can tell.

It's hard to understand why this would be the case, given the usual christian impression of god and Satan. Hence, only C is a reasonable position.

DanZ

[Dilettante]

Still there is one possibility--apart from the non-existence of God--and that you seem to overlook, namely that the Christian notion of God (and of Satan too) is simply wrong. In other words, that there is a God but it is nothing like we have imagined.
Of course, I'm aware that takes us beyond the scope of this debate...

[juliod]

the Christian notion of God (and of Satan too) is simply wrong.

Right! And as soon as I have convinced all the chrsitians that they are wrong I will start in on Islam.

DanZ

[micatala]

This is off topic, but I sometimes remember an analogy that occurred to me some years ago regarding the varieties of religions and non-religions.

Suppose God is like a huge invisible globe. Can't be seen or touched or sensed in any direct way. However, each of us has our own set of 'special paints' with which we can paint the globe (alright it's corny, only the special paint works on the globe).

The globe is so huge, we can only paint an infinitesimal part of it ourselves.

Groups of people might get together and paint larger regions of the globe, and call their picture a religion.

No one can ever paint or even see the whole globe, even in a lifetime. So far, only a tiny fraction of the globe has ever been painted.

Those who have taken a little too much pride in their work, and have forgotten or do not realize that everyone is really painting the same globe, insist that their particular picture (or the picture of their group, or just the part of the picture that they painted with the group) IS GOD.

Others insist that there is nothing under the paint, there is only the paint. Some of these have actually used the paints, but others have decided not too, for whatever reason.

As with all artistic endeavors, there is a great deal of misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the work of other artists. For many, this creates no trouble, but unfortunately for others great controversies and conflicts arise.

For what it's worth . . . .

[Dilettante]

the Christian notion of God (and of Satan too) is simply wrong.

Right! And as soon as I have convinced all the chrsitians that they are wrong I will start in on Islam.

DanZ

OK but even if the Christian, Jewish and Islamic concepts of God are wrong, it still doesn't follow that there is no God. The Aristotelian concept of God could be right (God exists but he doesn't know humans exist), or the human mind could simply be unable to formulate an adequate idea of God, at least not at the present evolutionary stage.

And hey, why leave Islam for tomorrow? Islamic fundamentalists are pretty active today.

[The Nice Centurion]

Thank you for your reply. I mean it too. I was beginning to worry that no one would answer.

Now as far as him answering your prayer to be a drunk, that can depend on what he can get out of it. Will making you a drunk make you hate God or become a rapist or child molester or something that will keep you from even thinking about searching for truth?

How about if I pray to Satan to make me a rapist, child molester and/or alcoholic? The worse the better. Right now I have no propensity for any of those things. If I were to become one that would certainly be good evidence for the existance of Satan. I couldn't deny the result.

You see, I am a strong atheist and a naturalist. I have no problem with prayer to Satan or demons. There is no such thing, and I am so sure of it I feel absolutely safe doing it. I would feel pretty dang silly too, but safe. I would bet my life on it.

DanZ

Satan must be uncomfortable with rape and child molesting, for this are genuine christian attributes, according to the fact that we always hear about child rape done by christians of all confessions. Never it happens that a satanist does such a thing.



But how about you pray to Satan to turn you into a Homosexualist AND to help you afterward to find a Catholic priest who officially blesses you and your coupling with a fellow Homosexualist?



Or how about you pray to Satan to make you able to perfectly read and write in Reformed Egyptian?
That would make you the first human after Prophet Joseph Smith and before him Prophet Moroni to really understand this long lost language.

If Satan denied you your request it would be proof for the Book of Mormon being genuine because it would show that Satan is plotting against it.

[boatsnguitars]

Often, in these forums, we are debating whether or not prayer "works". This usually takes the form of the christians explaining away the fact that we can never seem to detect the influence of prayer. It's always "God doesn't do tests" or "God does what's best for you, not necessarily what you ask for" or "Sometimes god says no".

So let's try the opposition. Will Satan answer a prayer in an unambiguous fashion? If not, why not? Does Satan have any power in the world today? Does he have a will independant of YHWH?

We often hear from christians about Satan or demons influencing people, or people working for them. So it should be possible to interact with them in some way.

Is it possible to summon a demon? Can a person converse with Satan?

How about if I ask Satan to cause me to sin? For example, I do not drink alcohol. If I pray to Satan to make me an alcoholic, will he? If not, why not?

DanZ

1. We have to recognize Theism isn't true, so all of this is academic.
2. I have tried to earnestly summon demons - which would prove the existence of God (since God seems to be unwilling to reveal himself - largely because of his little problem of non-existence.) No demons to date.
3. You question is a great one and shows how laughable Theism is, especially Christianity which is no more believable than Norse, Greek, Roman, etc. religions.