Jews and Jesus

[naz]

- Some Questions for Debate -

* Are Jews for Jesus?
* What are some common reasons for Jewish people not believing in Jesus?
* Are Jewish people no different than the pagans that killed Christ for turning their backs on him?
* Are Jewish people ungrateful for not believing and is that why they havent had any other messengers from god in over 2,000+ years?

Debate and justify your reasons.

[cnorman18]

So, unless you wish to toss out the Law of Non-Contradiction, we seem to be at an impasse.

I'm okay with an impasse. I believe in freedom of thought and the freedom to disagree, and till God Himself shows up to settle the dispute, I'm content to leave it where it is. I've got no warrant to decry Christianity as a "false religion," and I expect the same courtesy, private opinions notwithstanding.

I'm okay with an impasse as well. However, I'm not comfortable throwing our the law of non-Contradiction. At least one of the two mutually exclusive positions on this matter is wrong.

I don't think that's necessarily the case, in this instance. My own perspective, which I have mentioned before, is that while Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, I see no problem with the idea that he might (might!) have been sent by God as a sort of Messiah to the Gentiles. We Jews are and have always been "the smallest of peoples," and according to the Book will always be so; but many of us regard it as a good thing that the Gentiles have (though from our perspective imperfectly) come to the truth of the One God and become acquainted with the Tanakh. If it were not for Jesus, and perhaps even more for Paul, my own Celtic ancestors might have continued to paint themselves blue and worship trees.

The Jewish perspective is very different from the Christian. There are Jews who feel differently, but most, I think, see Christians and Jews not as enemies or opponents, but on the same side in the struggle against modern idol-worshippers - those who worship things, e.g., money, power, gratification, status, etc. Doctrinal and theological considerations take a back seat to ethics in every respect. Jews don't even agree among themselves on whether there is an afterlife or whether God is "good," and somehow that's just not an issue of concern. Fat chance we'd agree on the details of the alleged Incarnation.

The rabbis of old would have had a hard time with the "law of non-contradiction." In the Talmud, it's not at all uncommon for two (or more) mutually exclusive rulings to be allowed to stand, both of them affirmed as correct. Since no human has the authority to speak for God, and the question could not be settled through rational debate and consensus, freedom of thought between them is the rule. The usual expression in the Talmud is "When Elijah comes, he will tell us which of us is right - or why we both are."

Maybe Jesus was supposed to be the Messiah and screwed up; maybe WE screwed up, just like the fundamentalists say. Enh. Why is that important?

How many hungry people did we feed today? THAT is important.

[Joshua Patrick]

It happens. People are free to do as they like. I myself was a Methodist minister 30-some years ago, and now I'm a Masorti Jew.

Actually, no; there is no debate. Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah. Christians have no say in the matter, and Jews who come to believe otherwise are called by a special designation by other Jews; we call them "Christians."

Don't forget to read a couple of books by practicing Jews while you're doing your research. There are very few things that all Jews agree on, but this is one of them.

Actually, no; there is no debate. Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

Your personal opinion, always room for debate.

Alot of Jewish people convert to Christianity, must have reasons to convert.

Jews who come to believe otherwise are called by a special designation by other Jews; we call them "Christians."

Bless you calling us special!




As I stated the Jewish Rabbi was the Chief Rabbi of Rome so he would of known his stuff, maybe he had other influences persuading him, I dont know.


Other Jews who converted.

The Apostle Paul - As a Pharisee (a Judaic leader), Saul of Tarsus was an enemy of the Church and a persecutor of its believers. A vision while travelling left him temporarally blind and led him to be one of the most prominent Christians (Act 9:5) and author of many New Testament epistles.

Sir Julius Benedict - English composer

Benjamin Disraeli - British Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative Party in the 19th century

Sir Moses Ximenes " 18th century English merchant


Siegbert Tarrasch " Challenger for the World Chess Championship <--- This is divine power worker at its best my friend, when a challenger for the world chess championship converts, we know it is serious business.

[Goat]

It happens. People are free to do as they like. I myself was a Methodist minister 30-some years ago, and now I'm a Masorti Jew.

Actually, no; there is no debate. Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah. Christians have no say in the matter, and Jews who come to believe otherwise are called by a special designation by other Jews; we call them "Christians."

Don't forget to read a couple of books by practicing Jews while you're doing your research. There are very few things that all Jews agree on, but this is one of them.

Actually, no; there is no debate. Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

Your personal opinion, always room for debate.

Alot of Jewish people convert to Christianity, must have reasons to convert.

Jews who come to believe otherwise are called by a special designation by other Jews; we call them "Christians."

Bless you calling us special!




As I stated the Jewish Rabbi was the Chief Rabbi of Rome so he would of known his stuff, maybe he had other influences persuading him, I dont know.


Other Jews who converted.

The Apostle Paul - As a Pharisee (a Judaic leader), Saul of Tarsus was an enemy of the Church and a persecutor of its believers. A vision while travelling left him temporarally blind and led him to be one of the most prominent Christians (Act 9:5) and author of many New Testament epistles.

Not quite sure he actually was Jewish, despite his claims. His attitude to Jewish law and custom was .. HIGHLY irregular.

Sir Julius Benedict - English composer

Benjamin Disraeli - British Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative Party in the 19th century

Sir Moses Ximenes " 18th century English merchant


Siegbert Tarrasch " Challenger for the World Chess Championship <--- This is divine power worker at its best my friend, when a challenger for the world chess championship converts, we know it is serious business.

Now, we got someone even BETTER. We Got Sammy Davis Jr.!

And, there have been a number of Christian theologians and ministers to convert too.

What does it prove?? Absolutely nothing.. except sometimes people get disenchanted from their former religion, or sometimes have social or political reasons to convert

[Cathar1950]

It happens. People are free to do as they like. I myself was a Methodist minister 30-some years ago, and now I'm a Masorti Jew.

Actually, no; there is no debate. Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah. Christians have no say in the matter, and Jews who come to believe otherwise are called by a special designation by other Jews; we call them "Christians."

Don't forget to read a couple of books by practicing Jews while you're doing your research. There are very few things that all Jews agree on, but this is one of them.

Actually, no; there is no debate. Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

Your personal opinion, always room for debate.

Alot of Jewish people convert to Christianity, must have reasons to convert.

Jews who come to believe otherwise are called by a special designation by other Jews; we call them "Christians."

Bless you calling us special!




As I stated the Jewish Rabbi was the Chief Rabbi of Rome so he would of known his stuff, maybe he had other influences persuading him, I dont know.


Other Jews who converted.

The Apostle Paul - As a Pharisee (a Judaic leader), Saul of Tarsus was an enemy of the Church and a persecutor of its believers. A vision while travelling left him temporarally blind and led him to be one of the most prominent Christians (Act 9:5) and author of many New Testament epistles.

Not quite sure he actually was Jewish, despite his claims. His attitude to Jewish law and custom was .. HIGHLY irregular.

Sir Julius Benedict - English composer

Benjamin Disraeli - British Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative Party in the 19th century

Sir Moses Ximenes " 18th century English merchant


Siegbert Tarrasch " Challenger for the World Chess Championship <--- This is divine power worker at its best my friend, when a challenger for the world chess championship converts, we know it is serious business.

Now, we got someone even BETTER. We Got Sammy Davis Jr.!

And, there have been a number of Christian theologians and ministers to convert too.

What does it prove?? Absolutely nothing.. except sometimes people get disenchanted from their former religion, or sometimes have social or political reasons to convert

One person might find the other rings more true to their own leanings and to each his own.
I have read arguments that give good reasons to think Paul might have been a Herodian.
http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/eisenman.html
Paul as Herodian by Robert Eisenman

Then there are those that say Jesus was closer to a Pharisee then Jesus and he would fit better with the Gnostic, Mystery religions and other cults as his Christ was an Aeon.

No wonder Peter and those from James withdrew from him and those from James were correcting his teachings.

[Flail]

Why are we motivated to belong to groups? Why are we Jewish or Christian or Muslim etc? Can't we get over our ethnicity and indoctrinations and our tendency to herd like cattle, and just be citizens of the Universe? Why can't we shed old superstitious notions handed down thru generations? Why do we cling to traditions that persist to divide us over meaningless generational dogma like a bad habit.

[McCulloch]

My own perspective, which I have mentioned before, is that while Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, I see no problem with the idea that he might (might!) have been sent by God as a sort of Messiah to the Gentiles.

Your God might (might!) be an awfully odd fellow. Send a messiah to the Gentiles, teaching them that this messiah is the one foretold in the Jewish sacred writings. Will you at least admit that the Christians who teach that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Jewish messianic prophesied are wrong?

[WinePusher]

My own perspective, which I have mentioned before, is that while Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, I see no problem with the idea that he might (might!) have been sent by God as a sort of Messiah to the Gentiles.

While I don't fully agree, your post makes alot sense. Jews such as Dennis Prager are quite fond of Christianity because they believe, in a sense, Christianity universalizes the Jewish message. And what would have been confined to a small area of the world is now one of the world's predominent beliefs.

[Cathar1950]

My own perspective, which I have mentioned before, is that while Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, I see no problem with the idea that he might (might!) have been sent by God as a sort of Messiah to the Gentiles.

Your God might (might!) be an awfully odd fellow. Send a messiah to the Gentiles, teaching them that this messiah is the one foretold in the Jewish sacred writings. Will you at least admit that the Christians who teach that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Jewish messianic prophesied are wrong?

It does sound just a little bit to Christian.
I doubt he saw himself that way and it seems that is more along the lines of Paul that saw God showing himself to gentiles through him just as God showed Himself through Jesus to Jews. Then again Called, anointed or anointed got translated in Greek to Christ.
It might better be seen as some Jewish sect or imported to Greek and Roman pagans using the Hebrew writings find clues and claims to ancient pedigree against charges of being an innovation. They long parted company which Jews especially after the first Jewish war that shaped bother present religions.

[cnorman18]

My own perspective, which I have mentioned before, is that while Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, I see no problem with the idea that he might (might!) have been sent by God as a sort of Messiah to the Gentiles.

Your God might (might!) be an awfully odd fellow. Send a messiah to the Gentiles, teaching them that this messiah is the one foretold in the Jewish sacred writings. Will you at least admit that the Christians who teach that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Jewish messianic prophesied are wrong?

I've already done that; not only are the Christians who teach that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah wrong in my opinion, but the New Testament itself engages in falsehood when it makes that claim. The New Testament claims to derive its teachings from the Old, but it does not acknowledge the debt those teachings owe to Greek religious ideas that are wholly foreign to Judaism, starting with gods fathering human children. Jesus's "incarnation" has more to do with Hercules and Zeus than with Abraham and Moses.

I regard Christianity as a separate religion that is unrelated to Judaism except through historical accident; Jesus was a Jew, but those who formed and shaped the Christian religion were not. I doubt that Paul, the real founder and formulator of Christian teachings, was a Jew in the first place. If he was, his views on the Law, the relationship between humans and God, and the point of religion were so far from normative Judaism, even that of his own day, that they are unintelligible to most Jews. When Paul talks about the teachings of Judaism, he reveals himself as either ignorant or apostate - e.g., no one ever said that every Jew had to totally fulfill every aspect of the Law without error in order to be "saved" (one may find "proof texts" that seem to indicate that in the Bible, but then the Bible has never been the sole supreme authority in Judaism. That place belongs to the tradition, including the Oral Torah, which we regard as authoritative alongside Scripture).

Doctrinally, the two religions have very little in common. For starters, Judaism does not concern itself with the concept central to Christianity, personal "salvation." That's a pretty basic difference right there. Neither does Judaism regard the concept of God's incarnation as a human being as in any way acceptable, and rejects the idea that "belief" or "faith" of whatever content is relevant to "salvation," or indeed to anything at all, other than the ways in which that content affects one's actions. Those differences are true of every branch of Judaism of which I know (excepting "Messianic Judaism," which as I have noted before, is not Judaism at all, but a form of Christianity).

As a separate religion, I withhold judgment on whether or not God finds Christianity acceptable, just as I do Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Baha'i, et. al. I say I don't regard Christianity as a "false religion," but notice that I do not affirm that it is a true religion either. I don't profess to know; that's God's job. God might have sent Muhammad, Krishna, Baha'ullah and the Buddha too, for all I know. None of them have anything to do with my own religion, and it's none of my business. Unlike most faiths, when it comes to other religions, Jews have little or nothing to say. We may object to the practices of some other faiths - but are their precepts at bottom true, or false? We don't claim to know.

And as for God being an "odd fellow" - well, we knew that. As Will Rogers once pointed out, we know that God has a sense of humor, because he made monkeys, giraffes, and "a lot of you people." Perhaps God inspired, or allowed, many faiths because there are many ways that people can be induced to live in an ethical manner; or perhaps all of them, including Judaism, are entirely man-created. Again, I don't profess to know the mind, or the motivations, of God. Do you?

[McCulloch]

Will you at least admit that the Christians who teach that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Jewish messianic prophesied are wrong?

...the New Testament itself engages in falsehood

Thank you.

As a separate religion, I withhold judgment on whether or not God finds Christianity acceptable, just as I do Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Baha'i, et. al.

Since we cannot know whether God finds any religion acceptable (Judaism included), can we agree that God's approval is, if not irrelevant, moot?

I say I don't regard Christianity as a "false religion," but notice that I do not affirm that it is a true religion either.

Why not? You claim not to know whether it is a false religion, yet you can say that its own holy books engage in falsehood. What else is required to make it a false religion?

I don't profess to know; that's God's job. God might have sent Muhammad, Krishna, Baha'ullah and the Buddha too, for all I know. None of them have anything to do with my own religion, and it's none of my business.

Is that your deeply held (non) conviction on the matter, or is it a matter of practical self-preservation not to draw the obvious conclusion?

Again, I don't profess to know the mind, or the motivations, of God. Do you?

No, I don't. But using my apparently God-given intellect, I can assess the competing claims of human groups all claiming to hold revelations and instructions from the god.