Hell

[Grayson]

It has been said to me that God gives people faith to believe in Him.

Fine.

But if that is the case, how can one justify God sending people to Hell for not believing in Him if He only gives certain people the faith to believe in Him? Because it is His will? Then why Create people in the first place if only to send them to Hell?

Anyone?

[joer]

Amen Easyrider.

One day we wake up and it's all around us.

It's like being in a room that is totally dark (sin) and then someone

turns on the light. And you find yourself in the same place in the same room and all of a sudden you're overwhelmed with the beauty that is all around you. And you know inside you just know this is how it was meant to be. Nothing's changed except your perspective. Where there was once darkness and tremendous fear and error of thought, now is replaced by light and peace and beauty in our sense of being as well as in thought.

You are so moved by the Love of God that you feel you want to share that Love with others, which when you do is doing God's Will. Spreading the light and dispelling then darkness.

Where once we saw things that were depressing now we see things that are challenges to better ourselves. Through their resolution we become better human beings. And thus one step, one person at a time Hell, eternal damnation and eternal suffering, is Dispelled.

Remember Grayson, God doesn't send people to Hell, we put our selves there. Free Will!

[MagusYanam]

Remember Grayson, God doesn't send people to Hell, we put our selves there. Free Will!

But doesn't God also, being a reasoning moral agent, have free will? If it is God's free choice that everyone be accepted into heaven (as certain passages of the Gospel seem to indicate, such as Luke 3:6, John 12:47 and 15:16), is it possible for the free choice of man to thwart it?

[joer]

Hi Magus, Nice to meet you.

It's not God's free choice that everybody gets accepted into Heaven. It's is God's desire that everybody will CHOOSE to serve their fellow human beings and honor God and thus ascend onward towards heaven and a union with God.

As far as is it possible for man to thwart ascending onward in their path to God, it is because of free will but it's not likely many will not choose that path because God made it so natural for man to choose to do right.

Paul in his letter to the romans gives us a hint of how hard it is for a human being to thwart God's Plan.

A reading from the letter of Paul
to the Romans 8:31-39


If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but handed him over for us all, how will he not also give us everything else along with him? Who will bring a charge against God’s chosen ones? It is God who acquits us. Who will condemn? It was Christ Jesus who died rather was raised who is also at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us.

What will separate us from the Love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword? No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And then this from another book gives us an idea how good and evil can coexist.

P.1429 - §1 Jesus' last visit with Gadiah had to do with a discussion of good and evil. This young Philistine was much troubled by a feeling of injustice because of the presence of evil in the world alongside the good. He said: "How can God, if he is infinitely good, permit us to suffer the sorrows of evil; after all, who creates evil?" It was still believed by many in those days that God creates both good and evil, but Jesus never taught such error. In answering this question, Jesus said: "My brother, God is love; therefore he must be good, and his goodness is so great and real that it cannot contain the small and unreal things of evil. God is so positively good that there is absolutely no place in him for negative evil. Evil is the immature choosing and the unthinking misstep of those who are resistant to goodness, rejectful of beauty, and disloyal to truth. Evil is only the misadaptation of immaturity or the disruptive and distorting influence of ignorance. Evil is the inevitable darkness which follows upon the heels of the unwise rejection of light. Evil is that which is dark and untrue, and which, when consciously embraced and willfully endorsed, becomes sin.

P.1429 - §2 "Your Father in heaven, by endowing you with the power to choose between truth and error, created the potential negative of the positive way of light and life; but such errors of evil are really nonexistent until such a time as an intelligent creature wills their existence by mischoosing the way of life. And then are such evils later exalted into sin by the knowing and deliberate choice of such a willful and rebellious creature. This is why our Father in heaven permits the good and the evil to go along together until the end of life, just as nature allows the wheat and the tares to grow side by side until the harvest." Gadiah was fully satisfied with Jesus' answer to his question after their subsequent discussion had made clear to his mind the real meaning of these momentous statements.

[Jose]

It was god's choice to create hell in the first place. Presumably, there was no other reason than to use it as punishment. "Do as I say or I'll send you to hell." Does it make it any different if we pretend the phrasing is "Do as I say or I won't let you into heaven"?

Fortunately, heaven and hell only apply to those who believe in them.

[joer]

Hey José, ¿Como estás? Es un gusto en conocerte.

José wrote:

It was god's choice to create hell in the first place. Presumably, there was no other reason than to use it as punishment. "Do as I say or I'll send you to hell." Does it make it any different if we pretend the phrasing is "Do as I say or I won't let you into heaven"?

I don't think so José. I think it has more to do with us creating our own Hell.

My perception of these ideas like "HELL" evolves with accruement of knowledge and entertainment of varying ideas over time.
Sin - to me is making a mistake or missing the mark, like in old Anglo times when a arrow "sinned", it missed the mark. So basically when your doing something "wrong" instead of "right". But "wrong is basically "missing the mark".
Now when we do something wrong we "suffer" the consequences of that wrong doing.
So Hell- to me is "suffering the consequences" of our "wrong" doing. It's really kind of a natural occurrence. It's not imposed on us by GOD but is a result of our "free will" choice. God doesn't make us choose wrongly, we do it on our own. Now some of us constantly and consistently choose to do the "wrong" thing. Maybe some of you can conceive of such a person. Maybe a hardened criminal, repetitive murderer, some person who shows no remorse and has no intention of ever changing. This might be a person who would "suffer" the consequences of their actions as long as they're alive. And if they lived eternally it might be referred to as an "Eternal Hell".

It has become apparent to me that many arguments in these threads are based on old concepts of God, Hell or other ideas that have been evolving over time.
So Hell evolves from a “God Made Place for Punishment” to us "suffering" consequences from our own mistakes.

José wrote:

Fortunately, heaven and hell only apply to those who believe in them.

As you can see José, unfortunately that's not the case. we all suffer the consequences of our mistakes and thus create our own "Hell" whether we believe in it or not.

Conversely when we do things right, we enjoy the "Heaven" of our rewards for a job well done.

José have you sat down this spring and enjoyed the fields of corn waving in the breeze and contemplated with wonder the processes of life that create that scene by converting sunlight, earth, water and air into those beautiful fields of corn. Ah! "Heaven on Earth!"

Be Well José! Tell if it's still as beautiful as I remember!

José wrote:

Panza llena, corazon contento

Como llegaste a esta Panza llena?

Pues así -- Entre menos burros, mas olotes

[Aristarkos]

It has been said to me that God gives people faith to believe in Him.

Fine.

But if that is the case, how can one justify God sending people to Hell for not believing in Him if He only gives certain people the faith to believe in Him? Because it is His will? Then why Create people in the first place if only to send them to Hell?

Anyone?

Maybe God doesn’t give people faith. Maybe God just created a universe that has the possibility for life … and here we are … free to choose … and no REAL knowledge of an afterlife.

But what if there is an afterlife? The traditional heaven and hell doesn’t seem fair. God could do better. How ‘bout an afterlife like in the movie, “What Dreams May Come”? At least it’s not so black and white.

Maybe everyone makes it to an afterlife, but their level of existence is based their spiritual growth on earth. For example, a murderer would be like a baby. Perhaps this would be a starting point, and opportunities for real growth would go on forever.

Just some ideas. I have my doubts.

"Doubt is not a very agreeable state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."

[smokeyparkin]

Aristarkos

Maybe God doesn’t give people faith. Maybe God just created a universe that has the possibility for life … and here we are … free to choose … and no REAL knowledge of an afterlife.

It seems so obvious that is the case and we (as a race of humans) completely ignore the fact that there were several sons of god, messengers, healers, prophets, mad men - that lived thousands of years ago preaching there own interpretation of life and telling people that if they were bad they'd go to some kind of hell... But in Christianity you have a get out hell free card. No wander it became popular. You're fine as long as you say sorry. That is totally laughable!

There is no hell.

Maybe everyone makes it to an afterlife, but their level of existence is based their spiritual growth on earth. For example, a murderer would be like a baby. Perhaps this would be a starting point, and opportunities for real growth would go on forever.

I'm all for the afterlife its part of being human, and 2000 years when life was tough an afterlife was a nice thing to think about. So how can we trust the bible and Jesus? The intellectuals at the time put him to death and we're really only going by small pieces of evidence that are extremely one sided..!! What would a follower of that guy at Wacko, New Mexico of written about there leader had him and his followers been persecuted and pushed into hiding??? Nothing bad I'd imagine.

Christians are good people, and its a shame they feel in fear of questioning their faith, and its a shame their point of fear (Hell) has no grounds.

Lets really investigate God, heaven and hell from a totally neutral standpoint for once!!

[1John2_26]

Aristarkos
Quote:
Maybe God doesn’t give people faith. Maybe God just created a universe that has the possibility for life … and here we are … free to choose … and no REAL knowledge of an afterlife.


It seems so obvious that is the case and we (as a race of humans) completely ignore the fact that there were several sons of god, messengers, healers, prophets, mad men - that lived thousands of years ago preaching there own interpretation of life and telling people that if they were bad they'd go to some kind of hell... But in Christianity you have a get out hell free card. No wander it became popular. You're fine as long as you say sorry. That is totally laughable!

There is no hell.

Tell that to those that commit the suicides you mentioned elsewhere.

Quote:
Maybe everyone makes it to an afterlife, but their level of existence is based their spiritual growth on earth. For example, a murderer would be like a baby. Perhaps this would be a starting point, and opportunities for real growth would go on forever.

Reincarnation is a concept we all know. "Who" decides "what" we come back as, or dwell as?

I'm all for the afterlife its part of being human, and 2000 years when life was tough an afterlife was a nice thing to think about. So how can we trust the bible and Jesus? The intellectuals at the time put him to death and we're really only going by small pieces of evidence that are extremely one sided..!!

Illuminate us on those one-sided evidences?

What would a follower of that guy at Wacko, New Mexico of written about there leader had him and his followers been persecuted and pushed into hiding??? Nothing bad I'd imagine.

You mean Waco, Texas? You cannot get recent history correct how are you going to do with a bit older views?

Christians are good people, and its a shame they feel in fear of questioning their faith, and its a shame their point of fear (Hell) has no grounds.

Where are the fearful Christians? I kniow not one. And I know a lot of Christians.

Lets really investigate God, heaven and hell from a totally neutral standpoint for once!!

An accurate viewpoint or one like you presented about "Wacko" New Mexico?

Ask a child desperate not to be an "outcast" if "hell" is a concept with merit?

[joer]

It has been said to me that God gives people faith to believe in Him.

Fine.

But if that is the case, how can one justify God sending people to Hell for not believing in Him if He only gives certain people the faith to believe in Him? Because it is His will? Then why Create people in the first place if only to send them to Hell?

Anyone?

Maybe God doesn’t give people faith. Maybe God just created a universe that has the possibility for life … and here we are … free to choose … and no REAL knowledge of an afterlife.

But what if there is an afterlife? The traditional heaven and hell doesn’t seem fair. God could do better. How ‘bout an afterlife like in the movie, “What Dreams May Come”? At least it’s not so black and white.

Maybe everyone makes it to an afterlife, but their level of existence is based their spiritual growth on earth. For example, a murderer would be like a baby. Perhaps this would be a starting point, and opportunities for real growth would go on forever.

Just some ideas. I have my doubts.

"Doubt is not a very agreeable state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."

Aristarkos, I think you have excellent ideas. And the truth will open up to you because you are open to futher and deeper understanding of God's lessons.

You said,

But what if there is an afterlife? The traditional heaven and hell doesn’t seem fair. God could do better.

You are so right. The truth is alive and it's God's Love and it exists and is constantly changing and evolving all around you. You can see that and that's wonderful you find a profound understanding of God because God is in your heart.

Some people cling to a static concept of God with some archaic ideas that were acceptable for the mind set of people thousands of years ago. The essence of God, God's Love, remains stedfast and constant for eternity, but the expression of God is infinite. God will be seen as God needs to be seen for the spiritual advancement of the people who are seeing God at the time of their existence. As Languages, cultures, attitudes, knowledge and understanding changes. The way we see God changes so we can know God's constant Love and understanding regardless of the Time we exist in.

God reveals God's self to every generation, in understanding, Love, morals, in the world around us, through prayer, insight and our opening of our hearts to God.

It is for that reason Aristarkos, that it gives me great joy to see how you have opened your heart to God. And you desire to understand God personally in today's terms. Of one thing have no doubt Aristarkos...God loves you and the fact that you are searching for God, is the conclusive proof that God has already found you. GBU Bro!

[harvey1]

You mean Waco, Texas? You cannot get recent history correct how are you going to do with a bit older views?

That's not nice, John. Why be like that? He's trying to relay his views for the benefit of others, so why discourage someone from expressing their opinions?