Where did Christ go?

[marco]

In Acts 1 we have:

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel.

Which also said: Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


The above raises a few questions.

Does the location of heaven in the sky suggest the story is mere fabrication?
In what possible way could Jesus physically vanish above the clouds?
Is the appearance of "two men" in white simply a "deus ex machina" device to explain what happened - at least partially?
Would listeners reasonably suppose that the return of Jesus is more than 2000 years away?
A reasonable person would dismiss all this as nonsense. But why, then, has it been accepted for centuries?

[marco]

The point simply doesnt have the import that atheists and other skeptics say it does.

One can suppose what one wants to suppose. The simple story of a man rising up in the sky is so heavily influenced by prevailing pagan ideas that one is entitled to be just a tiny bit sceptical about the event ever happening.

[Talishi]

The writer/s of Genesis two couldnt have been oblivious to Genesis One. Since they had to have been aware of Genesis one they could have easily edited it to comport with Genesis two; however, they did not. That means that they obviously didnt find Gen. 1 and Gen. 2 to be irreconcilable.

Nevertheless, they are irreconcilable, because if man was created on day six, before the other day six animals (to comply with Genesis 2), this contradicts the plain fact that Genesis 1 has animals created on day five and six.

[JLB32168]

Nevertheless, they are irreconcilable, because if man was created on day six, before the other day six animals (to comply with Genesis 2), this contradicts the plain fact that Genesis 1 has animals created on day five and six.

Well . . . Ive shown how the two can be reconcilable, but it doesnt address the fact that the creation of man preceded the creation of all other things is only accurate if we exclude the evidence of Genesis 1 that clearly contradicts it.

[KingandPriest]

In Acts 1 we have:

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel.

Which also said: Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


The above raises a few questions.

Does the location of heaven in the sky suggest the story is mere fabrication?
In what possible way could Jesus physically vanish above the clouds?
Is the appearance of "two men" in white simply a "deus ex machina" device to explain what happened - at least partially?
Would listeners reasonably suppose that the return of Jesus is more than 2000 years away?
A reasonable person would dismiss all this as nonsense. But why, then, has it been accepted for centuries?

Lets use a example that we are familiar with today. A rocket that is designed to go into space will go up into the heavens (sky). After a particular point, the rocket is no longer visible. Does that mean the rocket is sitting in the sky hovering, or it is no longer visible beyond the heavens (sky).

In the passage above, the authors describe Jesus as ascending up into the heavens. At a particular point they could no longer see him. The average height of men in that period was between 5'3"-5'8". Even if Jesus was tall, after a height of 3 miles, no person would be able to see him any longer.

The word heaven is used in the bible to describe 3 locations, physical sky/atmosphere, spacetime, and the spiritual domain of God. Supporting context helps us understand which of these locations is being described.

In a similar sense, if i just use the word lead. Without context I could be talking about the chemical element in the carbon group with symbol Pb, or I could be describing leadership. One word with many meanings. The word heavens can describe multiple concepts depending on the context of the usage of the word.

Context is key.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 33 by KingandPriest]

We still have a problem no matter the context.
Remember, we're dealing (supposedly) with a Jesus who has a physical body like you and I, just one that was previously dead and is now back to life. It occupies a position in space-time, like you and I. It is corporeal, like you and I.
If you state that Jesus flew above the clouds, beyond the sight of mortal men, we then have to ask...where did he go? Is he still in orbit? Doubtful...we've had satellites in orbit for decades, and so far, Jesus hasn't appeared on any photo or video of the Earth.

Maybe Jesus left orbit and flew off into outer space, like Superman is seen to do in various DC media? This though suffers from the problem of Russell's Teapot - he could be there, but given the size of his human body, is undetectable.

I suppose then we could say that Jesus just simply shifted dimensions or some such - he now resides in the same dimension or supernatural realm God resides in. Problem here though, is that when this realm is talked about in other discussions, I've been told it's a realm outside space and time. So I'm scratching my head wondering how a body that can exist in normal 4 dimensional space time can just...exist there? It's a body that requires space and time to exist, and yet he's in a place that doesn't have either of those?

[marco]

Lets use a example that we are familiar with today. A rocket that is designed to go into space will go up into the heavens (sky). After a particular point, the rocket is no longer visible. Does that mean the rocket is sitting in the sky hovering, or it is no longer visible beyond the heavens (sky).

I shall indulge you. The rocket if directed properly will go into an elliptical orbit; or if the angle of projection is changed it will go into a hyperbolic orbit and move through space. Presumably Jesus isn't orbiting the Earth but he may well still be in transit. His return is problematic. But we knew that.
I think I was enquiring as to what motive force allowed the Lord to ascend in the first place, and where he went to.

In a similar sense, if I just use the word lead. Without context I could be talking about the chemical element in the carbon group with symbol Pb, or I could be describing leadership. One word with many meanings. The word heavens can describe multiple concepts depending on the context of the usage of the word.

And if lead refers to graphite, an allotrope of carbon, the required symbol will be C, for whatever difference that makes.
The context is that he went to heaven and my point is that heaven was regarded as being up in the sky (caelum in Latin, for instance, means both sky and heaven.) So the tale perpetuates the fallacy that heaven is a physical region in the sky.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 33 by KingandPriest]

We still have a problem no matter the context.
Remember, we're dealing (supposedly) with a Jesus who has a physical body like you and I, just one that was previously dead and is now back to life. It occupies a position in space-time, like you and I. It is corporeal, like you and I.
If you state that Jesus flew above the clouds, beyond the sight of mortal men, we then have to ask...where did he go? Is he still in orbit? Doubtful...we've had satellites in orbit for decades, and so far, Jesus hasn't appeared on any photo or video of the Earth.

Maybe Jesus left orbit and flew off into outer space, like Superman is seen to do in various DC media? This though suffers from the problem of Russell's Teapot - he could be there, but given the size of his human body, is undetectable.

I suppose then we could say that Jesus just simply shifted dimensions or some such - he now resides in the same dimension or supernatural realm God resides in. Problem here though, is that when this realm is talked about in other discussions, I've been told it's a realm outside space and time. So I'm scratching my head wondering how a body that can exist in normal 4 dimensional space time can just...exist there? It's a body that requires space and time to exist, and yet he's in a place that doesn't have either of those?

The bible describes Jesus as being in heaven at the right hand of God. Heaven as used in this context (Mark 16:19, Acts 7:55-56) is referring to the spiritual dimension of heaven, not our physical realm.

[Talishi]

Nevertheless, they are irreconcilable, because if man was created on day six, before the other day six animals (to comply with Genesis 2), this contradicts the plain fact that Genesis 1 has animals created on day five and six.

Well . . . Ive shown how the two can be reconcilable, but it doesnt address the fact that the creation of man preceded the creation of all other things is only accurate if we exclude the evidence of Genesis 1 that clearly contradicts it.

Genesis 1 has man a Day Six Creation.
Genesis 2 has man created before all animals.
Genesis 1 has some animals created on Day Five.
No reconciliation is possible.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 33 by KingandPriest]

We still have a problem no matter the context.
Remember, we're dealing (supposedly) with a Jesus who has a physical body like you and I, just one that was previously dead and is now back to life. It occupies a position in space-time, like you and I. It is corporeal, like you and I.
If you state that Jesus flew above the clouds, beyond the sight of mortal men, we then have to ask...where did he go? Is he still in orbit? Doubtful...we've had satellites in orbit for decades, and so far, Jesus hasn't appeared on any photo or video of the Earth.

Maybe Jesus left orbit and flew off into outer space, like Superman is seen to do in various DC media? This though suffers from the problem of Russell's Teapot - he could be there, but given the size of his human body, is undetectable.

I suppose then we could say that Jesus just simply shifted dimensions or some such - he now resides in the same dimension or supernatural realm God resides in. Problem here though, is that when this realm is talked about in other discussions, I've been told it's a realm outside space and time. So I'm scratching my head wondering how a body that can exist in normal 4 dimensional space time can just...exist there? It's a body that requires space and time to exist, and yet he's in a place that doesn't have either of those?

The bible describes Jesus as being in heaven at the right hand of God. Heaven as used in this context (Mark 16:19, Acts 7:55-56) is referring to the spiritual dimension of heaven, not our physical realm.

And...? Sorry to say, but this reply doesn't add anything to my reply. I already talked about what heaven supposedly is, as related to me by Christians over the years. I already described heaven as supposedly outside our space-time and the problems with that regarding physical bodies.

[Willum]

The writer/s of Genesis two couldnt have been oblivious to Genesis One. Since they had to have been aware of Genesis one they could have easily edited it to comport with Genesis two; however, they did not. That means that they obviously didnt find Gen. 1 and Gen. 2 to be irreconcilable.

Nevertheless, they are irreconcilable, because if man was created on day six, before the other day six animals (to comply with Genesis 2), this contradicts the plain fact that Genesis 1 has animals created on day five and six.

Part of the problem with debating is agreeing, even a little bit, for the sake of argument, with nonsense. Presuming the mythological six days as anything other than an absurdity, plays right into further absurdity.
Of course the writers of Genesis I were unaware of II - they were a fusion of two different mythologies. The Sumerian - for creation, and Egyptian for the generations and the Cain/Set and Able/Osiris and so on .
Or rather they were aware, but like Christians today, grew up on the inconsistency, and so did not find them questionable.