The Adam and Eve boondoggle

[Zzyzx]

.
The Adam and Eve boondoggle

According to Genesis 2, God created Adam and then later discovered that he had no 'helper' and made Eve from one of Adam's ribs.

Evidently 'God' did not realize that a single male human was not likely to reproduce. That seems a bit short-sighted for a supposedly all-knowing supernatural entity.

How could 'God' overlook such a glaring defect in the original situation?

Could it be that the Genesis tale is a bit wacky?

[theophile]

[Replying to post 29 by marco]

Or so we suppose. But I, in any event, am reading an English rendition of their supposed carefulness. Counting the number of times a word is used, and making deductions is a good guideline but not a proof of anything.

I was looking at the Hebrew.

You are an appreciator of fine literature. The bible is fine literature. Do you think any modern day writer, let alone ancient, wasn't careful with their words, and extremely selective? And used them to draw relationships to other popular texts of the time? Of course they did.

I'm not sure Holy Books should be in the business of playing dangerous games. We need only look at the Koran to see what damage such playfulness brings about.

To me, the bible (and likely koran) is wisdom literature. It tries to develop our wisdom. It is didactic. As such, it is ambiguous, and forces us to discern the truth by purposefully deploying ambiguous stories.

Doesn't spell things out but forces us to think. Precisely in order to teach us to think, and discern good and evil. (In this case, the proper place of woman in relation to man.)

But that is simply my view. Dangerous. Absolutely. But the alternative is what, a thoughtless species?...

[theophile]

[Replying to post 30 by Justin108]

So you believe Christianity is polytheistic then? I just want to confirm before I dig up the dozens of verses that explicitly state there is just one God. Granted, as an atheist I agree that there is a good chance that the author of Genesis 1 believed in polytheism before that religion evolved into monotheism, but the accepted Christian narrative is that there is just a single God throughout the Bible.

One God. One Word. But many united in that Word and making what it calls for real. ("Let us...")

Christ is the one (from the beginning) who speaks God's Word on earth and calls others into the fold.

[ttruscott]

So why pick on Eve when they are equal in every way? I think you've sufficiently illustrated that there is a preference. It may be inconvenient to admit it.

You know my unique take on their creation might shed light on this topic...

I contend they both became sinners in Sheol before the creation of the physical world. The first command that must be immediately given after the satanic fall is for the elect to come out from among them and touch not the unclean things as holiness cannot abide evil and must destroy it like a match destroys the darkness. 2 Corinthians 6:17

This is when some of the elect (those who accepted YHWH as their GOD) rebelled against the call for the judgement of those condemned (the satanic) out of love for their friends who chose to reject YHWH as a false god and a liar, blaspheming HIS name. This forced the postponement of the judgment day until these fallen elect could be returned to their first faith.

Then the call went out for the rest of the elect to separate from the sinful elect as goodness must not mingle with evil...and some more of the elect rebelled against YHWH not trusting their elect but newly sinful friends to HIS mercy and by rejecting HIS plan, joined the first elect sinners in their sin.

This would create a hierarchy of sin:
1. The Satanic who rejected YHWH totally, condemned to hell.
2. The first level of elect sinners who idolized the Satanic over GOD's command to separate from them.
3. The second level of elect sinners who idolized their sinful elect friends over GOD's command to come out from among them.

In the garden we have, from my pov, sinners - one of whom treats the satanic serpent like a mentor or pastor and follows him into disobedience and the other who only eats because his friend has eaten, that is, he follows her, not the serpent.

This can be seen to be reflected in 1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. Adam was not deceived by the serpent, he had hisss number, but he just could not leave Eve to the tender mercies of GOD, no matter what had been promised.

Paul's admonition that 1 Timothy 2:11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. is because Adam came first but also because he was not deceived but she was: 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

So it is no great leap to see that in PCE Adam was chosen as head and brought to earth first over Eve who was then made subservient to him because of her love for the satanic who she has a hard time rejecting. In that struggle she needs the help of the one who sees the satanic more clearly than she and should follow his direction and not try to teach him how to live. Adam and Eve as male and female could easily fit these parameters for the sinful elect, ie, supposedly the Church, though I see no necessity for the rest of the world to be involved in this hierarchy as they are all non-elect.

The thing to remember is that everyone from Satan to the honey wagon man were all created equal in ability to be the Bride of Christ and all differences of ability and propensity to sin are self created by our own free will choices. But once the choice to sin is made, things are unequal and within Spirituality, this forms a hierarchy of those being more willing to reject GOD than some other people who are just little bit closer to HIM in the hierarchy by being a little less willing to sin.

The sinful but saintly on earth are closer to GOD than those elect still in sin and at the bottom of the heap is Satan who started it all with his rebellion.

While the secular world is in furor over such things as possibly being expressed in our gender, me, not so much. It maybe like this, maybe not - I carry on either way. It is speculation about the meaning of verses in an old book, that's all.

[ttruscott]

There is no "picking on" Eve going on. It's just the nature of sin to have this cosmic effect.

I agree. But I think there is room to contend that the nature of her sin as idolatry of the satanic over GOD is different enough from Adam's idolatry of her over GOD that it was just for him to be given rule over her.

[ttruscott]

Eve is the dominant one in the story. She makes the decisions. She drives the narrative forward.

Yes, agreed. And that is why women being restrained within the Church is especially meaningful if the female gender among the sinful elect is a type for those who idolized the Satanic over their GOD's commands. 1 Tim 2:12 I do not permit a woman (an idolater of a satanic person) to teach or to assume authority over a man (an idolater of a sinful elect) ; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed (on earth, not referring to his creation) first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived (by Satan); it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner (first).

That what happened in the garden was a repeat of what happened in Sheol should be considered.

[marco]

You are an appreciator of fine literature. The bible is fine literature. Do you think any modern day writer, let alone ancient, wasn't careful with their words, and extremely selective?

All writers may be fallibly careful, theophile. Many critics today make the mistake, in their appreciation of art and literature, of reading too much and according credit where none is due. I accept that good art often involves a beauty even beyond the awareness of the artist, but we are here dealing with a simple numerical fact, word count, and translating it into an artistic design.

To me, the bible (and likely koran) is wisdom literature. It tries to develop our wisdom. It is didactic. As such, it is ambiguous, and forces us to discern the truth by purposefully deploying ambiguous stories.

Well those of us who have paraded the halls of education will know that expectation of success in presenting lessons is often doomed to failure. Many who read and cherish the Bible do not possess the intellectual wherewithal to observe its subtleties and many lessons, however divinely intentioned, will be lost on hoi polloi.

[ttruscott]

Incidentally the "curse" stuff has given some men an excuse to treat women as slaves. Such are the problems of taking poetry literally.

It is the fact that all humans are sinners that drives men and women to evil, not the poetry book.

[marco]

Then the call went out for the rest of the elect to separate from the sinful elect as goodness must not mingle with evil...and some more of the elect rebelled against YHWH not trusting their elect but newly sinful friends to HIS mercy and by rejecting HIS plan, joined the first elect sinners in their sin.

Your idiosyncratic theology is interesting, Ted. Goodness often mingles with evil, just as the light shines in darkness, whether or not the darkness grasps it. In fact, it is the visitation of goodness on evil that is at the root of missionary work, for how else does redemption come about? Jesus demonstrated this very well.

While the secular world is in furor over such things as possibly being expressed in our gender, me, not so much. It is maybe like this, maybe not - I carry on either way. It is speculation about the meaning of verses in an old book, that's all.

Speculation about verses in an old book has moved the world, Ted, and burned many people. When we read the Bible we must speculate on the meaning of its verses, for they do not drip meaning as honey from oak trees.

[marco]

Incidentally the "curse" stuff has given some men an excuse to treat women as slaves. Such are the problems of taking poetry literally.

It is the fact that all humans are sinners that drives men and women to evil, not the poetry book.

All humans are sinners, but some are more sinful than others. The Bible is not the sole source of man's bad ideas but it has generated lots of prejudice and lots of suffering. I grant you that man needs little encouragement.

[ttruscott]

Well those of us who have paraded the halls of education will know that expectation of success in presenting lessons is often doomed to failure. Many who read and cherish the Bible do not possess the intellectual wherewithal to observe its subtleties and many lessons, however divinely intentioned, will be lost on hoi polloi.

Perhaps such subtleties as A&E being naked but not ashamed before they ate yet when they had their eyes opened to their sin they saw their nakedness, not their eating, a nakedness that is referred to by the same word used to describe the cunning sinfulness of the serpent... a subtlety lost for a long long time, eh?