Us

[nobspeople]

So as to not sidetrack the 'dominion' thread, who are the 'us' in the below:
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
For discussion:
If there was only one god before creation (as many claim), who is the 'us' being referred to here?
Does god see itself in the plural?
Was jesus there with god?
Were there other gods there at the same time?
Or, if you like, how do YOU justify the 'us' here, in this quote?

[cms]

It is not the male-female partnership that was made in the image of God.

Tam, I agree. Being made in the image of God means you are one in heart and mind. Spiritual qualities aren't male or female

Even Christ, who is male, is also described in the feminine at least one time (as Wisdom).

Wisdom is neither male or female. It's the soundness of an action or decision with regard to the application of experience, knowledge and good judgment.

So you can see that the Word became flesh and is the Son. We can see that Christ is the Light. And in both instances of the Word and the Light, we can see that all things were made through Him.

"But the path of righteousness is like the light of dawn which shines brighter and brighter until full day."

"The unfolding of your words gives light: it imparts understanding to the simple."

"For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life."

"That you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world."

My words are Spirit and they give life."

To me, these verses seem to be saying something different

[tam]

Peace to you,

It is not the male-female partnership that was made in the image of God.

Tam, I agree. Being made in the image of God means you are one in heart and mind. Spiritual qualities aren't male or female

Even Christ, who is male, is also described in the feminine at least one time (as Wisdom).

Wisdom is neither male or female. It's the soundness of an action or decision with regard to the application of experience, knowledge and good judgment.

The Wisdom speaking at Proverbs 8 is Christ.

There is Wisdom who is Christ, and there is wisdom which is what you describe. Just as there is the Life who is Christ, and life (as in the life we live). There is the Truth who is Christ, and there are things that are true. There is the Light who is Christ, and there is light (such as from the sun). There is the Word who is Christ, and there are words that are spoken.

So you can see that the Word became flesh and is the Son. We can see that Christ is the Light. And in both instances of the Word and the Light, we can see that all things were made through Him.

"But the path of righteousness is like the light of dawn which shines brighter and brighter until full day."

"The unfolding of your words gives light: it imparts understanding to the simple."

"For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life."

"That you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world."

My words are Spirit and they give life."

To me, these verses don't seem to be saying that all things were made through Jesus.

Those verses aren't making those statements. But the verses in John 1 are making the statement that all things were made through Him (the Word and the Light, both identified as Christ).


From God, through Christ.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Veridican]

I haven't read all the replies yet, but the "us" is the 24 elders mentioned in the book of Revelation. They represent the Son of God to prior civilizations on Earth; what I call the "stone movers" and even before that.

[cms]

The Wisdom speaking at Proverbs 8 is Christ.

Tam, I'm not exactly sure of what you're saying. To me, wisdom in Proverbs 8 is the personification of an intangible thing.
Wisdom described as the soundness of an action or decision with regard to the application of experience, knowledge and good judgment is what was with God.

There is the Word who is Christ, and there are words that are spoken.

From what I understand, are words that are spoken, for example, "Love others as yourself." And there is a "living word", meaning someone who actually obeys and does what the words say. Jesus was a living example of the spoken word.

Adam was a Son of God. He was led by the Spirit in the beginning. The "us" could be other human beings who were also led by the Spirit of God.

[cms]

I haven't read all the replies yet, but the "us" is the 24 elders mentioned in the book of Revelation. They represent the Son of God to prior civilizations on Earth; what I call the "stone movers" and even before that.

Veridican, I hadn't heard of this. It's a very interesting point.

[tam]

Peace to you,

The Wisdom speaking at Proverbs 8 is Christ.

Tam, I'm not exactly sure of what you're saying. To me, wisdom in Proverbs 8 is the personification of an intangible thing.
Wisdom described as the soundness of an action or decision with regard to the application of experience, knowledge and good judgment is what was with God.

There is the Word who is Christ, and there are words that are spoken.

From what I understand, are words that are spoken, for example, "Love others as yourself." And there is a "living word", meaning someone who actually obeys and does what the words say. Jesus was a living example of the spoken word.

I understand what you mean, in that Christ does what His Father commands at all times, even speaking the words the Father gave Him to speak. But Christ is Himself the (living) Word being written about in John 1, through whom all things were made (that have been made), and WHO became flesh and made His dwelling among us.

Adam was a Son of God. He was led by the Spirit in the beginning. The "us" could be other human beings who were also led by the Spirit of God.

Not sure that makes sense when God said "Let us make man in our image." Man has not yet been made, how can man be part of the 'us'?


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[cms]

Not sure that makes sense when God said "Let us make man in our image." Man has not yet been made, how can man be part of the 'us'?

I believe there were other people in existence at the time since the land of Havilah, Ethiopia, and Assyria are mentioned.

[cms]

But Christ is Himself the (living) Word being written about in John 1, through whom all things were made (that have been made), and WHO became flesh and made His dwelling among us.

Tam, Thanks for your response. For me, there is only one God who created the earth as a home for mankind and all His other creatures. I don't believe that God needed any help in doing so. The only "sons" God has are human beings who are led by the Spirit. So I tend to go with other explanations for the "us" in the beginning. But that doesn't mean we can't agree on other points.

[theophile]

It is not the male-female partnership that was made in the image of God.

It was Adam who was made in the image of God. Adam - being made both male and female, until God took the female out of the male (how else could a 'rib' from Adam create a woman, if the woman had not first been IN the man)?

What if the answer to what it means to be imago dei has been staring us in the face this whole time? I'm not saying I'm right, but only that it's possible. That Genesis 1:27 can be read as definitional, i.e., that the image of God imprinted on human flesh is man and woman. I'm not saying that that is all God is (if we reverse engineer), but only that difference (here captured by biological gender), and more importantly marriage and union into one body and self, is fundamental to God, and the imprint of God upon matter. (Marriage is literally how two, which is to say an 'Us', become One... It is arguably the function whereby we join the body of Christ and ultimately to God...)

But there are two things going on here. (1) What it means to be made in the image of God, which I would argue is to be made male and female joined together in marriage. (2) What it means to be part of the 'Us', which is to say part of the marriage / conjoined body of Christ that is ultimately God. (Or to be what we have been calling the children of God or Christ, as the firstborn of these.) I think that's the more important question we need to be mindful of. Who or what is the 'Us' of Genesis 1?

Here my point is that there is a more fundamental marriage / union at play, between what I've been calling Spirit and matter. Or what John calls Word and flesh. Christ (/the children of God) are the product of this union. Christ is literally the Word made flesh. It is only when we (creatures of flesh) participate in the same Spirit - becoming one with it in marriage - that we join the body of Christ and ultimately to God.

Adam is an interesting point on this. He is more than just imago dei. Sure, he participates in this through his marriage to Eve, but more fundamentally he is the union of matter (/dust) and God's breath (/Spirit). Like Christ, he is literally the Word made flesh, which puts him above the rest of humankind made in the image of God and makes him a true child of God. (And Eve is presumably the same, except the material element comes from Adam himself in her case instead of straight from the earth.)

So you can see that the Word became flesh and is the Son. We can see that Christ is the Light. And in both instances of the Word and the Light, we can see that all things were made through Him.

Christ is the Word being spoken of here (as well as the Word of God who came to the prophets; as well as the Word at Hebrews 4:12). He is the Word and the Light (and the Truth, and the Life, and the Way).

Subtle but important difference: Christ is not the Word, he is the Word made flesh. That is what I was trying to point out in John 1:1. Christ is counter-positioned against the Word, but there is never a direct equation of the two. What John goes on to describe is that he is more precisely the miracle that comes from the union of Spirit and matter. 'The light' being the prime example. It is the very first (/firstborn) of the Word ("let there be light") and flesh (i.e., whatever provided the raw material / substance for the light).

So I would continue to maintain that while God is clearly Christ's spiritual Father (the Word is tantamount to God's seed), the question of who Christ's material mother is remains open. What is the material womb that receives the Word and brings it into the world of flesh?

Mary serves this function in the gospels. In Genesis 1, the prime candidate is tehom / the deep.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Not sure that makes sense when God said "Let us make man in our image." Man has not yet been made, how can man be part of the 'us'?

I believe there were other people in existence at the time since the land of Havilah, Ethiopia, and Assyria are mentioned.

Just to clarify: Are you saying you think these other people helped God created man?

I'm just unsure who you are saying is the 'us' when God said "Let US make man in our image." I apologize if you answered that earlier in the thread, and I missed it.


Peace again!