How can Christianity convince Jews to see the light?

[Confused]

Historically, Jews were oppressed/persecuted/exterminated before the coming of Jesus and they continued to be oppressed/persecuted/exterminated after the death of Jesus. They continue this same pattern even today.
Now, Christianity has flourished, has become the dominant religion. Jesus, as the Christ, has brought unity to the masses. And still Jews continue to reject Him as the Messiah.

What can Christians offer Jews that would make them see the light? Make them understand, in the context that Jews would understand within their own ideology, that Jesus is the way, the only way?

[jgh7]

I think you are mistaken easyrider. Biblical faith doesn't look anything like christianity. The framework is completely Israels. christians have most likely had a transaction with God that has eternal implications. But the framework and presentation of historical christianity, the system its-self is flawed.

I see the opposite. Abram was declared righteous by believing (having faith) in God (Genesis 15:6 - and that before the Law was given), and righteousness comes by faith in God (Christ) in the NT also (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3, etc.). And there are numerous other similarities.

It is readily apparent in the Scriptures that Yeshua, the apostles and the early community of believers were Torah observant Jews.

Only to a degree. If they were totally Torah-observant there wouldn't have been all the gut-wrenching animosities that we see from the Judaism crowd towards Jesus and his apostles. In addition, Jesus said unless you believe that he is the one he claims to be (he claimed to be the Jewish Messiah and God), you will indeed die in your sins. How "Torah Observant" was that?

He is the father of the faith, that's true. But he still had a relationship with God that included Torah.

Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

The animosity has /is generated by the false portrait of Jesus/Yeshua as some Torah sloppy Jew who doesn't think Torah is relevant. Like most, if not all christians, including you, why can't you see how indispensable Torah is ???

Let me ask you, if Torah is not relevant to believers today, why would Jesus not say something to that effect in the so called nt ??? Why are believers zealous for the law / Torah in Acts ??? Show me one instance in the nt where the believers do anything that is a violation of Torah and thought of as exceptable.


Torah is a LIVING document that doesn't fold up and die after messiah comes.

The believers and Jesus are accused of violating the Law in a few ways. Jesus' disciples picked grain on the Sabbath, and Jesus healed on the Sabbath. The Pharisees who were the supposed experts on the law condemned them for that. Also, all food was declared clean by Jesus and his disciples. That simple statement seems to violate an entire chunk of laws about clean and unclean foods. Jesus didn't condone the stoning of a woman who comitted adultery, even though it says she should be stoned in the Law.

I think there are many violations of the Law that are accepted and condoned. The Law can seem to violate itself at times when it makes commandments like stoning people but also treating your neighbor as yourself. I don't think the Law was made to be more important than everything or to be taken completely literally. I think faith is more important. The Law by no means is useless, but I think it's a waste to believe in the Law but have no faith.

The Jews seem content in clinging to the Law and tradition. They make their own interpretations of the Law to suit their own needs. They add to the Law and take away from it. I don't quite see where true faith comes into their religion, not to say that it can't, but I just don't think most Jews today care that much about faith.

[Zzyzx]

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The Jews seem content in clinging to the Law and tradition.

Christians seem content in clinging to their law and tradition.

They make their own interpretations of the Law to suit their own needs. They add to the Law and take away from it.

Christians make their own interpretations of their law to suit their own needs. They add to the law and take away from it.

I don't quite see where true faith comes into their religion, not to say that it can't, but I just don't think most Jews today care that much about faith.

I don't quite see where true faith comes into the Christian religion, not to say that it can't, but I just don't think most Christians today care that much about faith

[TMMaria]

Historically, Jews were oppressed/persecuted/exterminated before the coming of Jesus and they continued to be oppressed/persecuted/exterminated after the death of Jesus. They continue this same pattern even today.
Now, Christianity has flourished, has become the dominant religion. Jesus, as the Christ, has brought unity to the masses. And still Jews continue to reject Him as the Messiah.

What can Christians offer Jews that would make them see the light? Make them understand, in the context that Jews would understand within their own ideology, that Jesus is the way, the only way?

Let's not make it seems as if the Jews are specially targeted for persecution than any other groups; nor that everyone else it out to get them. Every group that ever existed in some way have experienced persecution...and it has to do with the swing of the political pendulum as brother continue to struggle against brother for the greater share of whatever possessions that they desired....just as Cain persecuted Abel.

The Jews still have God's covenantal love...God always keeps His promises made to the Jewish fathers of faith: Abraham, Israel, David....Christians need not have any special agenda to convert Jewish people.

What can Christians offer Jews that would make them see the light? Asking this question is assuming that faith can be achieved without Divine Providence. The only thing Christians can do...and this is how the world know they are Christians: by their love. It is not what they preach, it is the way they live. It is the way of total commitment to: Love God, love your neighbors. The world would know God is real when they see Love is real. The reason why the world still fail to see God...it is because the world still bear much pain and wounds from the unloving. The dark forces of this world would continue to inflict their injuries on the hearts of man...and through that pain...only Love is the Light that can lift them out of their pain. Only Love can heal.

[TMMaria]

The believers and Jesus are accused of violating the Law in a few ways. Jesus' disciples picked grain on the Sabbath, and Jesus healed on the Sabbath. The Pharisees who were the supposed experts on the law condemned them for that. Also, all food was declared clean by Jesus and his disciples. That simple statement seems to violate an entire chunk of laws about clean and unclean foods. Jesus didn't condone the stoning of a woman who comitted adultery, even though it says she should be stoned in the Law.

I think there are many violations of the Law that are accepted and condoned. The Law can seem to violate itself at times when it makes commandments like stoning people but also treating your neighbor as yourself. I don't think the Law was made to be more important than everything or to be taken completely literally. I think faith is more important. The Law by no means is useless, but I think it's a waste to believe in the Law but have no faith.

The greatest Law: love God, love each other. Abraham's children of faith should be totally committed to God in covenantal love. Yet, the nation of Israel fell away from the spirit of the law...and make their own letters of the law above God's Law. Jesus,God's SOn Himself, had come to show us it is in the Spirit of the law...not the letters of the Law.

[cnorman18]

A few remarks:

The Jews seem content in clinging to the Law and tradition.

Of course we do. That is Judaism. But see below, on "faith."

They make their own interpretations of the Law to suit their own needs. They add to the Law and take away from it.

As we believe we are permitted, even commanded, to do by the Torah itself. Now that the Torah has been put into our hands, it is no longer in Heaven; and it is up to us to determine its meaning and application. That principle is illustrated rather graphically by a story from the Talmud which I have already posted, wherein a voice from Heaven is rebuked by the rabbis for interfering in their debates--and that God was well pleased that His children haad grown up. That remains a basic principle of the Jewish religion.

The Ten Words can never be revoked or overruled, of course, nor any of the principles derived from them; but the details of Jewish law are to be determined by men. Like it or not, that is the belief and practice of Jews, and it is the right of no one to say that it is improper or wrong.

I don't quite see where true faith comes into their religion, not to say that it can't, but I just don't think most Jews today care that much about faith.

That would depend on what one means by "true faith," would it not? It is true that Jews don't spend a lot of time or energy trying to believe, as it appears to us that Christians do; we don't talk about "strengthening our faith," or working up emotional states or displays of our "faith," or talk about how important our "faith" is to us; we don't close our eyes and clench our fists and repeat, like the Cowardly Lion in The Wizard of Oz, "I DO believe, I DO, I DO!"

We don't have to. Belief in and devotion to God are simply the ground of our existence and of every aspect of our lives. We take our belief in God and our trust in Him for granted, as beyond questioning or doubt, and see no need to deal with it any more than with gravity. That seems more like "true faith" to me--whereas the "faith" that is worked up by force of will and emotion and exhibited as a prize or a badge of honor seems to me to be no faith at all.

As I said earlier, faith and a dollar will buy you a bag of chips. We do not "believe in" God; to us, God simply is. No special power, no extra credit, no privilege, and no "salvation" is attached to knowing that; that is, for us, simply the nature of reality. God is; the world is; we are. What of it? Let's talk about what we can do and not waste time on the obvious.

If that isn't "true faith"--belief without questioning or doubting even occurring to us--I'd like to know what "true faith" would look like.

Let's not make it seems as if the Jews are specially targeted for persecution than any other groups; nor that everyone else it out to get them. Every group that ever existed in some way have experienced persecution...

I'm sorry, but that is just not historically accurate.

True, every group has been persecuted at one time or another; but the Jews have been so consistently, in every country and culture where we have ever lived, for more than two thousand years. We have been banished from every country in Europe at least once, and have been consistently persecuted specifically and especially by both Muslims and Christians for virtually that entire time. Blatant and overt antisemitism has only ended within the Christian community in the last hundred years or so, and is not entirely absent even today; and in the Muslim community, Jew-hatred is as strong and visceral as it has ever been since the relatively benign atmosphere of 12th-century Spain. There is no other group on Earth that has been so widely and consistently hated. If you can show me one that has, I'd be very happy to be wrong; but I don't think you can.

The Rom (improperly called "Gypsies") might come closest, but their troubles have historically had more to do with mere contempt and being regarded as outcasts than with regular pogroms and outright mass murders that long predate the Holocaust, with which no genocide, ancient or modern, is comparable.

This not a matter of "playing the victim card." It is a matter of recognizing cold historical facts.

The only nation on Earth that has never persecuted its Jews is the United States. We like it here; but we don't let our present security and success in this country allow us to forget our history and our heritage.

The Jews still have God's covenantal love...God always keeps His promises made to the Jewish fathers of faith: Abraham, Israel, David....Christians need not have any special agenda to convert Jewish people.

This is wholly remarkable. Would that more Christians felt this way, and acted--or refrained from acting--on account of such beliefs. For that, I thank you, TMMaria, and I am grateful. Historical misunderstandings are insignificant in comparison.

[McCulloch]

We don't have to. Belief in and devotion to God are simply the ground of our existence and of every aspect of our lives. We take our belief in God and our trust in Him for granted, as beyond questioning or doubt, and see no need to deal with it any more than with gravity. That seems more like "true faith" to me--whereas the "faith" that is worked up by force of will and emotion and exhibited as a prize or a badge of honor seems to me to be no faith at all.

As I said earlier, faith and a dollar will buy you a bag of chips. We do not "believe in" God; to us, God simply is. No special power, no extra credit, no privilege, and no "salvation" is attached to knowing that; that is, for us, simply the nature of reality. God is; the world is; we are. What of it? Let's talk about what we can do and not waste time on the obvious.

If that isn't "true faith"--belief without questioning or doubting even occurring to us--I'd like to know what "true faith" would look like.

What a wonderful description of faith!

You state "God is; the world is; we are" and call that obvious. Looking in reverse order. We are. Implies first I am. Ok, that much is obvious. We are. Yes, there are others. We (family, tribe, neighbourhood, nation, species) are. The world, the universe is. But God? No, God's existence is not obvious.

[cnorman18]

We don't have to. Belief in and devotion to God are simply the ground of our existence and of every aspect of our lives. We take our belief in God and our trust in Him for granted, as beyond questioning or doubt, and see no need to deal with it any more than with gravity. That seems more like "true faith" to me--whereas the "faith" that is worked up by force of will and emotion and exhibited as a prize or a badge of honor seems to me to be no faith at all.

As I said earlier, faith and a dollar will buy you a bag of chips. We do not "believe in" God; to us, God simply is. No special power, no extra credit, no privilege, and no "salvation" is attached to knowing that; that is, for us, simply the nature of reality. God is; the world is; we are. What of it? Let's talk about what we can do and not waste time on the obvious.

If that isn't "true faith"--belief without questioning or doubting even occurring to us--I'd like to know what "true faith" would look like.

What a wonderful description of faith!

You state "God is; the world is; we are" and call that obvious. Looking in reverse order. We are. Implies first I am. Ok, that much is obvious. We are. Yes, there are others. We (family, tribe, neighbourhood, nation, species) are. The world, the universe is. But God? No, God's existence is not obvious.

Funny; I just posted a message on another thread where I compared this sort of belief in God's existence to belief in one's own. It is that clear and certain.

Actual belief (though given its usual implications, I hesitate to even use that word), such as I am describing here, requires no proof and admits no disproof. It is simply not of the realm where such things apply. To one who does share that sort of approach, no doubt the word "obvious" is a puzzle, but that seems to me to be the nature of Jewish "faith." I doubt if other words that I might have used in that sentence--"starting point," "givens," "basics," or the like--would have helped very much.

Put it this way: Gravity, properly understood, is not "obvious." That things are attracted to each other, and that such attraction increases with mass and decreases with distance? Please. That has only been understood since Newton, and is not "obvious" even now.

What is obvious is that there is a direction called "down" in which things tend to fall. That has been obvious since we lived in trees, and is not the same thing by any stretch. (Come to think of it, it was probably even more obvious then, since we probably fell out of them from time to time.)

If one thinks of God as a concept, like gravity, then no, God is not obvious. In my view, such a belief is rather limited, and is confined to the intellectual realm.

Actual belief in God, as opposed to the intellectual, worked-up and held-by-force-of-will variety (which is therefore susceptible to doubt and counterargument), is more like Tillich's definition of God as the Ground of all Being. The precise nature and mode of existence of that Ground is not obvious, and Jews do not claim to have answers to those questions; but that there is such a Ground is as obvious, to us, as--well, as the ground we walk on.

As I have written elsewhere; in my opinion, if one sets about trying to prove or disprove the existence of God, one is instantly paralyzed and can go no farther. No such proof or disproof is possible; or if it is, it hasn't been found in the last few millenia of people trying, and I decline to enter that particular wild-goose chase. The decision to believe or not to believe (insofar as it is a decision) must be made, if at all, on other grounds.

All of which is perhaps no more than a roundabout and polite way of saying, "Sorry, I can't help you with that; it's obvious to me."

[McCulloch]

Put it this way: Gravity, properly understood, is not "obvious." That things are attracted to each other, and that such attraction increases with mass and decreases with distance? Please. That has only been understood since Newton, and is not "obvious" even now.

What is obvious is that there is a direction called "down" in which things tend to fall. That has been obvious since we lived in trees, and is not the same thing by any stretch.

On two different levels, obvious since the first time our mother's set us down or obvious since our ancestors left the oceans.

If one thinks of God as a concept, like gravity, then no, God is not obvious. In my view, such a belief is rather limited, and is confined to the intellectual realm.

Leading me to wonder just what is meant by God.

Actual belief in God, as opposed to the intellectual, worked-up and held-by-force-of-will variety (which is therefore susceptible to doubt and counterargument), is more like Tillich's definition of God as the Ground of all Being. The precise nature and mode of existence of that Ground is not obvious, and Jews do not claim to have answers to those questions; but that there is such a Ground is as obvious, to us, as--well, as the ground we walk on.

The availability of such a definition of God is why I remain an agnostic atheist. Most theists' definition of God and their claims about what God is, what God does and has done and what God wants, goes way beyond Tillich's rather minimalist definition. Define God as the ground of all being, and I will agree that the existence of God is obvious. Then claiming that God, so defined, has told some people to abstain from eating pork, or others to believe in an afterlife is absurd.

All of which is perhaps no more than a roundabout and polite way of saying, "Sorry, I can't help you with that; it's obvious to me."

Your civility is appreciated.

[cnorman18]

Put it this way: Gravity, properly understood, is not "obvious." That things are attracted to each other, and that such attraction increases with mass and decreases with distance? Please. That has only been understood since Newton, and is not "obvious" even now.

What is obvious is that there is a direction called "down" in which things tend to fall. That has been obvious since we lived in trees, and is not the same thing by any stretch.

On two different levels, obvious since the first time our mother's set us down or obvious since our ancestors left the oceans.

Quite true; on the personal level, and on the historical/ancestral level.

If one thinks of God as a concept, like gravity, then no, God is not obvious. In my view, such a belief is rather limited, and is confined to the intellectual realm.

Leading me to wonder just what is meant by God.

Which answer, or an attempt at an answer, follows.

Actual belief in God, as opposed to the intellectual, worked-up and held-by-force-of-will variety (which is therefore susceptible to doubt and counterargument), is more like Tillich's definition of God as the Ground of all Being. The precise nature and mode of existence of that Ground is not obvious, and Jews do not claim to have answers to those questions; but that there is such a Ground is as obvious, to us, as--well, as the ground we walk on.

The availability of such a definition of God is why I remain an agnostic atheist. Most theists' definition of God and their claims about what God is, what God does and has done and what God wants, goes way beyond Tillich's rather minimalist definition.

Of course it does. I was here speaking of only a belief in the existence of God per se, not about the details of such a belief. Further, I would say that Jewish beliefs about "what God is" are rather limited and "agnostic" themselves, so to speak; as I said, "The precise nature and mode of existence of that Ground is not obvious, and Jews do not claim to have answers to those questions." About what God does, has done, and wants, though, we are rather more specific. See below.

Define God as the ground of all being, and I will agree that the existence of God is obvious. Then claiming that God, so defined, has told some people to abstain from eating pork, or others to believe in an afterlife is absurd.

Well, it would be if I had said that the details of belief are directly derived from that definition. They aren't. As I said, I was speaking only of the bare fact of belief itself, and the distinction between holding that belief as an axiom of existence as opposed to the other kind.

One learns the details of belief in the way that one learns anything else; from family, community, books, observation, inference, whatever. No doubt one learns this basic attitude toward God--as wholly real and basic to existence--in that way as well.

Regarding that, incidentally, I have no idea why my own beliefs fall into this Jewish pattern, but they do and always have. I was raised by Baptists and Methodists, but from early childhood I saw no value in a "faith" one had to work at, even though it was all around me. It always seemed to me that one believed, or one didn't. If I had to convince myself of something, whether it was God's existence or the honesty of a used-car salesman, it struck me that at some level of consciousness I suspected that belief to be false. I never felt it necessary to convince myself that there was earth under my feet, and so with God.

Now, that God had anything to do with Jesus--that was another matter entirely. I found that that did require effort and rationalization and the suppression of doubts; and as I grew older, I found that to be more and more uncomfortable, which is why I eventually left Christianity and became a Jew.

Not incidentally, nowhere in the OT does it say, "Don't eat pork." The kosher laws are derived indirectly from the Torah, for the most part, and seem to be primarily about minimizing the shedding and consumption of blood, and of remaining humbly aware that the meat on one's plate required the death of another creature. They are neither as arbitrary nor as random as they might appear at first glance.

One of the things I like about Judaism is that the more one understands about it, the more sense it makes by way of being internally consistent and not dependent on either the supernatural or resorting to "mystery." I suppose that is part of the reason I see no conflict between considering myself at once a "theist" (I prefer simply "Jew") and a rationalist.

All of which is perhaps no more than a roundabout and polite way of saying, "Sorry, I can't help you with that; it's obvious to me."

Your civility is appreciated.

As is yours. I'm enjoying the discussion immensely.

[Confused]

Historically, Jews were oppressed/persecuted/exterminated before the coming of Jesus and they continued to be oppressed/persecuted/exterminated after the death of Jesus. They continue this same pattern even today.
Now, Christianity has flourished, has become the dominant religion. Jesus, as the Christ, has brought unity to the masses. And still Jews continue to reject Him as the Messiah.

What can Christians offer Jews that would make them see the light? Make them understand, in the context that Jews would understand within their own ideology, that Jesus is the way, the only way?

What are you talking about ?? I said christians DON'T have the light. So how prey tell can they convince Jews to see what they don't have ??

Did I miss something here or did you post to another and forget to include their post?