Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

[POI]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

[Shem Yoshi]

As far as the topic of this thread, the fact of the matter is is that a loving God might allow suffering... This thread is completely based on the idea that this is impossible, but clearly it is possible, in fact we have even come to the conclusion that suffering can be loving and good in itself. And also that it is a necessity of life.

You may have reached that rather self-serving conclusion, but don't speak for others. I do not see suffering as loving and good or a necessity of life. Pain yes, but suffering no.

How would you define the difference between pain and suffering?

I looked and here is a quote "Pain is a physical sensation or signal indicating an event within the body. Suffering is the interpretation of that event and involves thoughts, beliefs, or judgments, and reflects the human experience of pain."

[brunumb]

As far as the topic of this thread, the fact of the matter is is that a loving God might allow suffering... This thread is completely based on the idea that this is impossible, but clearly it is possible, in fact we have even come to the conclusion that suffering can be loving and good in itself. And also that it is a necessity of life.

You may have reached that rather self-serving conclusion, but don't speak for others. I do not see suffering as loving and good or a necessity of life. Pain yes, but suffering no.

How would you define the difference between pain and suffering?

I looked and here is a quote "Pain is a physical sensation or signal indicating an event within the body. Suffering is the interpretation of that event and involves thoughts, beliefs, or judgments, and reflects the human experience of pain."

So you just want to quibble about the meanings. Your comment suggested that you know what suffering is and that it is good and your loving god approves. I'm sure most people following this thread understand exactly what is being discussed and how it is more convenient for some to just sweep it under the rug with some spin and somehow get God off the hook.

ETA: I'm sensing that this is going down the same path as the "Inerrant......or is it?" thread.

[Shem Yoshi]

As far as the topic of this thread, the fact of the matter is is that a loving God might allow suffering... This thread is completely based on the idea that this is impossible, but clearly it is possible, in fact we have even come to the conclusion that suffering can be loving and good in itself. And also that it is a necessity of life.

You may have reached that rather self-serving conclusion, but don't speak for others. I do not see suffering as loving and good or a necessity of life. Pain yes, but suffering no.

How would you define the difference between pain and suffering?

I looked and here is a quote "Pain is a physical sensation or signal indicating an event within the body. Suffering is the interpretation of that event and involves thoughts, beliefs, or judgments, and reflects the human experience of pain."

So you just want to quibble about the meanings. Your comment suggested that you know what suffering is and that it is good and your loving god approves. I'm sure most people following this thread understand exactly what is being discussed and how it is more convenient for some to just sweep it under the rug with some spin and somehow get God off the hook.

ETA: I'm sensing that this is going down the same path as the "Inerrant......or is it?" thread.

You are the one who brought meaning up dude...

[TRANSPONDER]

As far as the topic of this thread, the fact of the matter is is that a loving God might allow suffering... This thread is completely based on the idea that this is impossible, but clearly it is possible, in fact we have even come to the conclusion that suffering can be loving and good in itself. And also that it is a necessity of life.

You may have reached that rather self-serving conclusion, but don't speak for others. I do not see suffering as loving and good or a necessity of life. Pain yes, but suffering no.

How would you define the difference between pain and suffering?

I looked and here is a quote "Pain is a physical sensation or signal indicating an event within the body. Suffering is the interpretation of that event and involves thoughts, beliefs, or judgments, and reflects the human experience of pain."

So you just want to quibble about the meanings. Your comment suggested that you know what suffering is and that it is good and your loving god approves. I'm sure most people following this thread understand exactly what is being discussed and how it is more convenient for some to just sweep it under the rug with some spin and somehow get God off the hook.

ETA: I'm sensing that this is going down the same path as the "Inerrant......or is it?" thread.

You are the one who brought meaning up dude...

No, I think it was you:
Shem Yoshi wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:56 am
....
How would you define the difference between pain and suffering?

Either way, (physical) Pain is a subset of suffering, while they can also be synonyms for physical pain and suffering or emotional pain or suffering. Semantic quibbles are irrelevant and pointless. Brunum's point was that (as i recall (1) Suffering is not good or not always. Trying to excuse it as for our own good is not persuasive to anyone not already persuaded. Quite apart from the doctrine of Sin - in which case it is more for our punishment than our good. As always, does it make more sense to explain or excuse a supposedly caring God from doing or allowing this (after all, some have to excuse it by saying God's hands are off helping up because of free will, or Stan is Lord of the world, or any one of a grab -bag of excuses) or we are trying to survive in a world that is trying to kill us, mostly and bugs and bacteria are also trying to survive by parasiting on us? The hopefully still open -minded have to decide for themselves.

(1) Yes - "I do not see suffering as loving and good or a necessity of life. "

[JoeyKnothead]

Either way, (physical) Pain is a subset of suffering, while they can also be synonyms for physical pain and suffering or emotional pain or suffering. Semantic quibbles are irrelevant and pointless. Brunum's point was that (as i recall (1) Suffering is not good or not always. Trying to excuse it as for our own good is not persuasive to anyone not already persuaded. Quite apart from the doctrine of Sin - in which case it is more for our punishment than our good. As always, does it make more sense to explain or excuse a supposedly caring God from doing or allowing this (after all, some have to excuse it by saying God's hands are off helping up because of free will, or Stan is Lord of the world, or any one of a grab -bag of excuses) or we are trying to survive in a world that is trying to kill us, mostly and bugs and bacteria are also trying to survive by parasiting on us? The hopefully still open -minded have to decide for themselves.

(1) Yes - "I do not see suffering as loving and good or a necessity of life. "

While I acknowledge that suffering can bring about a better outcome, the sticking point for me is where suffering is of such an order as to be nigh on evil.

Surely an omnipotent god could do his magic in our lives without such unfathomable suffering.

[William]

Either way, (physical) Pain is a subset of suffering, while they can also be synonyms for physical pain and suffering or emotional pain or suffering. Semantic quibbles are irrelevant and pointless. Brunum's point was that (as i recall (1) Suffering is not good or not always. Trying to excuse it as for our own good is not persuasive to anyone not already persuaded. Quite apart from the doctrine of Sin - in which case it is more for our punishment than our good. As always, does it make more sense to explain or excuse a supposedly caring God from doing or allowing this (after all, some have to excuse it by saying God's hands are off helping up because of free will, or Stan is Lord of the world, or any one of a grab -bag of excuses) or we are trying to survive in a world that is trying to kill us, mostly and bugs and bacteria are also trying to survive by parasiting on us? The hopefully still open -minded have to decide for themselves.

(1) Yes - "I do not see suffering as loving and good or a necessity of life. "

While I acknowledge that suffering can bring about a better outcome, the sticking point for me is where suffering is of such an order as to be nigh on evil.

Evil itself could be nothing more than a superstitious conceptualization of suffering.
If it were just seen as a natural part of the whole experience which shapes and grows the personality, the superstitious conceptualization of suffering by calling it 'evil' would diminish into the shadow of realism.

Surely an omnipotent god could do his magic in our lives without such unfathomable suffering.

The way around that is to understand the following;

1: Even considering a god as omnipotent, does not mean that we should therefore not have to experience unfathomable suffering.
2: The unfathomable suffering is not forever.
3: Most of us who are enjoying life, are not experiencing unfathomable suffering
4: Human beings have been around long enough to accept suffering as part of the overall experience of life on this planet in the universe.


I think we exist within something that we helped to create and thus, to consider that I am evil for helping to create this thing we are experiencing, and that ultimately some omnipotent god is evil for bringing anything into existence which could assist in the creation of an evil thing, is counter-productive to my sense of wellbeing.

Others choose to explain suffering as unnatural and argue that this planet is the devils domain, and that the devil inherited it from the god.

More superstition - methinks - about that idea...

When one solves the problem of evil, one also realizes that it wasn't really a problem to begin with...it just appeared that way due to the idea [more superstition] that the pain of childbirth was a punishment, and other 'explanatory' stuff like that. A type of mansplaining, of which women can be equally guilty of perpetuating.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to brunumb in post #319]

With humans I can also talk to them.

[brunumb]

[Replying to brunumb in post #319]

With humans I can also talk to them.

Are the humans you can't talk to not suffering?

[Shem Yoshi]

what about when a frog is put in a pot of cold water, and you slowly raise it to boiling? Ever think of that?

[POI]

what about when a frog is put in a pot of cold water, and you slowly raise it to boiling? Ever think of that?

Seems you acknowledge the Christian specific problem here....

If you wish to raise a topic, where atheists should all be vegans, as to avoid a cognitive dissonance; this might be a worthy topic. I would happily concede the cognitive dissonance, BTW.

However. let's remain focused here.... Christianity has a problem. And the problem is.... Why must there be animal suffering? As stated, many responses ago. I still find any theist answer here very unsatisfying. And not because I'm close-minded. I'm open to a logical rebuttal. Comparing the 'problem of human evil' <against> 'the problem of animal evil' places the elephant right into the room.

The only work around I see, thus far, is if animals reside in Heaven too. One theist poses this is possible, via a Bible verse. But then also questions the animal's self-awareness. Hence, why must they still appear to suffer? I mean, through "observation", can we determine if a dog is happy, verses sad, or in pain? I think we can.... So EVEN IF an animal does not have full self-awareness, why would this loving God subject them to unaware suffering regardless? I mean, if we humans, like WLC, are happy that they cannot experience self-awareness (like humans), then why would he care if someone kicked his pet dog?.?.?.?.? Why take this dog for a walk? etc etc etc....

In conclusion: If the theist wants to argue that animals do not have full self awareness, then why act like they do? Why treat them "right", while god treats many of them "wrong"?