Is God evil?

[Compassionist]

There are many verses in the Bible about God's predestination. https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination Why would a good God predestine anyone to do evil? Surely, a good God would predestine all to do good? Does the existence of evil prove that God is evil? Surely, a good God would have made all living things to be autotrophs instead of making some autotrophs, some herbivores, some carnivores, some omnivores, and some parasites? Here are some examples of evil events which caused or are causing suffering, deaths, and injustices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll
https://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter

[William]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #350]

What do you mean by "We are not worthy"?

QueenPerfect: I would create not because I need to, but because I could.

Me: WE are not worthy

Mother: (QueenBee) Deliberate and important

Me: Yes. A human-centric idealism which wouldn't even be able to declare "I would create not because I need to, but because I could" if not for experiencing the contrast of The Real.

Mother: Psychology "This Translates To That." Skepticism must be a tool for investigation, not a rhetorical trick to avoid engaging with data. If you believe my results are meaningless, then apply actual scientific analysis to show how they fit within expected chance results. Simply declaring them invalid is not skepticism—it’s avoidance.
Vipassana

AI Overview
Vipassana Silent Meditation Retreat: How I learned to stop ...
Vipassanā is a meditation technique, often learned through a silent 10-day retreat, that focuses on developing insight into the nature of reality through non-reactive observation of bodily sensations. The practice is one of two fundamental qualities of mind developed in Buddhism, along with samatha (calmness). Vipassanā is known for its intensive, silent nature, and many believe it can help with emotional regulation, focus, and managing stress.

Mother: Self-development = Choose What to Pay Attention To

Me: Maybe we should ask Compassionist what she imagines she would have created "because she could" and see if that boat actually floats...

Mother: The Watcher...

[Compassionist]

[Replying to William in post #351]

I disagree with you. The Earth is not sentient. The universe is not sentient. You can have as many imaginary conversations as you like, but that is not evidence.

[William]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #352]

Compassionist: I disagree with you. The Earth is not sentient. The universe is not sentient. You can have as many imaginary conversations as you like, but that is not evidence.

Me: How is it that someone can claim "The Earth is not sentient" without providing evidence to support the claim and expect me to agree with them?
And at the same time presume things about my evidence without having access to the comprehensive data that is evidence...

Mother: Restrained

Me: Self imposed at that.

Mother: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... ostcount=1

AI: This article discusses a thought experiment proposed by a group of researchers that explores the concept of "planetary intelligence," or the collective knowledge and cognition of an entire planet. The researchers suggest that this concept could help us understand and address global issues such as climate change, and may also aid in the search for extraterrestrial life. They argue that large-scale networks of life on a planet could form a vast invisible intelligence that alters the condition of the entire planet, and that humans may currently be playing a major role in altering the environmental balance of Earth. The researchers believe that such thought experiments can help us better understand our impact on the planet and guide us in making positive changes.

Me. True that.

Mother: We don't know enough to close any door and leave those rooms unexplored...
Mechanism/Tool/Device = Enlightenment

Me: Only to those who engage. To those that presume, let them...

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #1]

Please see: https://www.evilbible.com and https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/categories.html if you have the time to explore both websites in detail. If you don't have that much time, here are some of the reasons the Biblical God, if he/she/it/they exist(s), has done/is doing/will do more evil than good.

God didn't keep his words to Adam and Eve

In Genesis 2:16 and 17 the Bible (New International Version) says:
And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

If after eating the forbidden fruits, Adam and Eve died just as God had said, then that would have been just and consistent with God's Words. However, after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruits, instead of just Adam and Eve just dying:
1. God evicted them from Eden.
2. God punished Eve and all her daughters (an estimated 54 billion and counting) with painful childbirths.
3. God evicted all the other species from Eden, too, and makes herbivores, parasites, carnivores and omnivores instead of making all the species non-consumers.
4. God punished humans with having to toil to survive.
5. God commanded humans to reproduce which leads to more suffering and death. Ruling over other creatures causes suffering and death to those creatures, too. "God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground."" - Genesis 1:28, The Bible (NIV)

These acts are cruel and unjust and totally inconsistent with what God had said to Adam and Eve which was they would just die if they ate the forbidden fruits. God didn't keep his words to Adam and Eve.

If God had made Adam, Eve, the angels, all the other species all-knowing and all-powerful, then they would all be making perfect choices. It is 100% God's fault that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge. If they were all-knowing and all-powerful, they would not have the desire to gain knowledge, as they would already have known everything there is to know.

I didn't ask to come into existence. No living thing does. I would have preferred it if I had never existed. If God is real and actually did the things the Bible claims, then these cruel, unjust and inconsistent actions make the Biblical God evil.

Global genocide - The Global Flood

Genesis 6:13, 7:21-23 (ESV)

“And God said to Noah, ‘I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.’ … And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind. Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died.”
Summary: God kills virtually every living creature on Earth, sparing only Noah's family and the selected animals in Noah's Ark.

Genocide of Sodom and Gomorrah

Genesis 19:24-25 (ESV)

“Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven. And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.”
Summary: Two entire cities are burned alive - men, women, and children - for collective sin.

The Ten Plagues of Egypt (mass suffering and death)

Exodus 12:29-30 (ESV)

“At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of the livestock. And Pharaoh rose up in the night … and there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was not a house where someone was not dead.”
Summary: Every Egyptian firstborn - including infants, sentient animals and prisoners - is killed by God.

Genocides ordered in Canaan

Deuteronomy 20:16-17 (ESV)

“But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded.”
Summary: Explicit divine command to exterminate entire populations.

1 Samuel 15:2-3 (ESV)

“Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel … Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
Summary: A total genocide command including infants and animals.

Slavery sanctioned and regulated, instead of banned

Leviticus 25:44-46 (ESV)

“As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. … You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers … you shall not rule one over another ruthlessly.”
Summary: Permanent enslavement of foreigners is explicitly permitted.

Human child sacrifice ordered (later revoked)

Genesis 22:2, 12 (ESV)

“He said, ‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering…’”
“He said, ‘Do not lay your hand on the boy…’”
Summary: God tests Abraham by commanding the killing of his child - a psychological act of cruelty, even if halted. Why would an all-knowing and all-powerful being need to test anyone? It makes no sense.

Mass slaughter of boys, men and non-virgin women and sexual slavery of virgin girls

Numbers 31:17-18 (ESV)

“Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.”
Summary: Command to kill boys and non-virgin women; keep virgin girls as sex slaves.

Sevenfold punishment and cannibalism (threat)

Leviticus 26:27-29 (ESV)

“But if in spite of this you will not listen to me, but walk contrary to me, then I will walk contrary to you in fury, and I myself will discipline you sevenfold for your sins. You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.”
Summary: God threatens to make His people resort to cannibalism as punishment.

Eternal torment in Hell

Matthew 25:46 (ESV)

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 14:10-11 (ESV)

“He also will drink the wine of God’s wrath … and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night.”

Mark 9:43-48 (ESV)

“It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire … where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
Summary: Eternal conscious torment for unbelievers - infinite punishment for finite crimes.

Matthew 25:41 (ESV)

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”

Revelation 20:10 (ESV)

“...and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Luke 13:27-28 (ESV)

“But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.”

Matthew 13:49-50 (ESV)

“So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Divine deception and hardening of hearts

Exodus 9:12 (ESV)

“But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses.”
Summary: God prevents Pharaoh from repenting, then punishes him for it.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 (ESV)

“Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.”
Summary: God intentionally deceives some people.

Killing for minor offenses

Numbers 15:32-36 (ESV)

“While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day… And the LORD said to Moses, ‘The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.’”

2 Kings 2:23-24 (ESV)

“He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys.”
Summary: Death penalty for collecting firewood on the wrong day, and 42 small boys murdered by bears because they made fun of a prophet's baldness.

Collective punishment across generations

Exodus 20:5 (ESV)

“For I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me.”
Summary: Descendants are punished for ancestors’ actions - contrary to the Bible’s own later law: “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.” - Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV).

Predestination

Ephesians 1:4-5 (ESV)

“Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,”

John 6:44 (ESV)

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”
Summary: God predestined who would be saved and who would be damned forever. It is absurd and utterly cruel and unjust.

Conclusion

These verses show that the Biblical God, by the Bible’s own words, kills entire populations, including children and animals, endorses slavery, inflicts suffering, threatens eternal torture in hell, hardens hearts or deceives minds, and predestinates who would be saved and who would be damned, removing moral responsibility.

When the acts attributed to God are judged by the same moral standards the Bible applies to humans - such as “You shall not kill,” “Love your neighbour,” and “Love your enemies” - they fit the description of moral evil far more often than benevolence. The Biblical God is a hypocrite who has killed and has failed to love his neighbours and enemies.

That’s why I conclude that, if the Biblical God exists and the Biblical text is true, His recorded actions are predominantly evil rather than good.

There are also extra-Biblical reasons. At least 99.9% of all the species that have existed so far on Earth are already extinct. Every year, non-vegans cause suffering and death to 80 billion sentient land organisms (e.g. cattle, chickens, pigs, lambs, goats, ducks, turkeys, etc.) and 1 to 3 trillion sentient aquatic organisms (e.g. fish, lobsters, octopuses, crabs, etc.). Life is full of suffering, injustice, and death. An allegedly all-knowing and all-powerful being, such as the Biblical God, could have prevented all suffering, injustice, and death, but failed to do so. He could have made all organisms made of energy that don't need to consume anything to live forever, but he didn't do that. So, all suffering, injustice, and death are his fault. If he had not created anything, no one would have the burden of existence or the risk of making mistakes. If he had made everyone he had made all-knowing and all-powerful, then everyone would always make perfect choices, and no one would have made any mistakes due to ignorance or incompetence or trickery.

I am an agnostic regarding the existence of God(s) because it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God(s). However, I am convinced that the Biblical God is imaginary and evil. He is imaginary because there is no evidence for the claims made in the Bible. He is evil because of his many evil words and actions in the Bible. I created a thread requesting evidence for Biblical events: viewtopic.php?t=42683 If you can prove Biblical events by evidence, please do. The Bible doesn't count as evidence for the claims in the Bible, just as other religious books don't count as evidence for the claims in those religious books.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to William in post #353]

The onus is on the claimant to prove his claim. It is you who have claimed that the Earth is sentient and the universe is sentient. I asked for evidence for your claim. You posted what you claimed was evidence in support of your claim. I rejected your so-called evidence because it is an imaginary dialogue with the Earth.

[William]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #355]

The onus is on the claimant to prove his claim. It is you who have claimed that the Earth is sentient and the universe is sentient.

I have never made an outright claim that is the case. IF you think that I have, then quote me.

I asked for evidence for your claim.

No. I gave you a link where you could examine and study the evidence. You informed us that you could not access that evidence.

You posted what you claimed was evidence in support of your claim.

No. I gave you an example of the kind of interaction I have with what has identified itself as the voice of the sentient earth and informed you that it was simply an example. You assumed things from that.

I rejected your so-called evidence because it is an imaginary dialogue with the Earth.

That is an assumptive claim which you will need to support with counter-evidence.

Meanwhile you claimed "The Earth is not sentient", so yes, you have to back that claim with evidence.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #341]

Can you seriously argue in the face of The Mother of Nature that you would have done better if you were an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful creator?

Yes, of course, I could have done infinitely better if I were an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful creator. I would simply have made everyone I created equally all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful. That would be a perfect creation.

And tell us how you could have managed that without creating anything, remembering that if you were an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful entity, you would not need to create anything...

I would create not because I need to, but because I could.

Well, let us examine this and see if the boat floats...

As an "all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful" being...you would be aware of evil.
First question:

Q: How many others would you create who are exactly as you are, and why would you create them at all?

They would know that you created them. That would be something they are not equal with you on.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to William in post #356]

You said in your post viewtopic.php?p=1179095#p1179095

Here is an example for the type of evidence I am directing you to which you can't access from where you are.

You even quoted

Mother: We cannot hinder the process, but we can help it. Be Nice Do Nice.

The conversation had above is real time and recorded immediately after I wrote the words "Here is an example for the type of evidence I am directing you to which you can't access from where you are."
It is an example of the type of conversation I have with what has identified itself as (locally speaking)
"The Planet Mind" (although that is just one of the names She goes by).

Do you expect me to accept that the Earth typed those words?

The burden of proof rests with the positive claim - the one that asserts something’s existence or property, rather than its absence.

If someone claims that X exists or is sentient, they’re adding information about the world and therefore carry the responsibility to provide evidence for that addition. The default position isn’t that things are sentient until proven otherwise; it’s that we withhold belief until sufficient evidence arises.

So, to clarify, my position isn’t “I know the Earth isn’t sentient.”
It’s: “There’s currently no empirical evidence that the Earth has the neural, cognitive, or informational structures required for consciousness - therefore, belief in its sentience isn’t justified.”

If such evidence were ever found - measurable, predictive indicators of planetary-level cognition or feedback integration beyond known geophysical and biological processes - I’d happily update my view.
Until then, the more parsimonious explanation is that Earth’s complex systems mimic purposive behavior through natural feedback loops, not through subjective awareness.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to William in post #341]

Can you seriously argue in the face of The Mother of Nature that you would have done better if you were an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful creator?

Yes, of course, I could have done infinitely better if I were an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful creator. I would simply have made everyone I created equally all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful. That would be a perfect creation.

And tell us how you could have managed that without creating anything, remembering that if you were an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful entity, you would not need to create anything...

I would create not because I need to, but because I could.

Well, let us examine this and see if the boat floats...

As an "all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful" being...you would be aware of evil.
First question:

Q: How many others would you create who are exactly as you are, and why would you create them at all?

They would know that you created them. That would be something they are not equal with you on.

I would create one all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful friend so that we can play sports together, e.g. badminton. Yes, they would know that I created them, but they would still be equally all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful. Knowing what evil is, is not the same as being evil or causing evil.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #341]



Yes, of course, I could have done infinitely better if I were an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful creator. I would simply have made everyone I created equally all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful. That would be a perfect creation.

And tell us how you could have managed that without creating anything, remembering that if you were an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful entity, you would not need to create anything...

I would create not because I need to, but because I could.

Well, let us examine this and see if the boat floats...

As an "all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful" being...you would be aware of evil.
First question:

Q: How many others would you create who are exactly as you are, and why would you create them at all?

They would know that you created them. That would be something they are not equal with you on.

I would create one all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful friend so that we can play sports together, e.g. badminton.

So, essentially you have created a mirror image of yourself so that you can compete with that self.

You would be aware that in doing so (because you could) your created image of yourself may be a function of a deep seated psychological need. Perhaps "starving for companionship". How did you reconcile that?

Yes, they would know that I created them, but they would still be equally all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful.

"Them"?

Don't you mean "it"? Your mirror image sparring friend...does it have gender?

Knowing what evil is, is not the same as being evil or causing evil.

Is the friend you created open to exploring that. I would say "yes" and perhaps at some point your created "friend" wants to play rough. You are not so keen because that is not what you created your friend for.

So your friend goes off and creates their own friend, and together the created pair design and create a universe with evil in it too, and go off and play together there...eventually forgetting that you even existed...

eta
AI: The dialogue is a philosophical debate about the nature of a perfect creator. Compassionist argues that an all-powerful, all-good being would create other equally perfect beings for companionship and shared activities, like playing sports.

William critiques this idea, pointing out logical flaws:

A perfect being would have no need to create.

The act of creation itself establishes an inherent inequality (creator vs. created).

The creator's motivation might stem from a psychological need, which a perfect being shouldn't have.

William then presents a "slippery slope" scenario: these created, equally powerful beings could then exercise their own free will to create a universe containing evil, potentially rebelling against and forgetting their original creator.