When does it become bad to explain things away with science?

[jgh7]

In another thread the argument came up that skeptics will do whatever they can to explain any supernatural event away with science. This raised numerous ethical questions in my mind.

The first question:
Is it morally bad to try and explain away supposed supernatural events with science?

My thoughts on the matter: I actually consider it a moral obligation to do everything possible to explain it away with science. In the past, it has proven to give us great knowledge. E.g.) Learning that lightning wasn't caused by Zeus, but by electrons and other cool scientific stuff.

The next question:
Ok, so perhaps some will concede it's initially not morally bad to explain things away with science, and that perhaps it's the responsible thing to do just to be sure and to possibly grant us better scientific knowledge of how the universe works. But does there come a point when it does become morally bad in the sense that we are being stubborn to the obvious supernatural events that have occurred?

Final Question:
Given all the knowledge we have acquired today throughout historical books, logical thinking, scientific experimentation, etc. Are there any events/phenomena that can be proven to have occurred or that are still occurring that are so obviously supernatural to the point that we should accept them as being from a higher power, and if we don't we are obviously stubborn selfish fools?

[Baz]

Existence trying to understand itself....

Somebody has found the meaning of life.

[Crazee]

But my point is that because no two things in the universe are exactly the same, we can never rely 100% on mathematical measurements to be correct. I definitely think math and numbers are useful, but I don't think they can figure out the ultimate questions of existence unaided.

That only has to do with the limits of our ability to measure.. The answer is already known, the problem is understanding how it all works.

Moving on from my last post...

If our ability to measure is limited, then how do we know we are measuring correctly?
If our ability to measure is limited, then is the current answer reliable?

Isn't understanding how it all works a part of the answer?
Can we know the answer if we don't yet understand how it all works?

[TheJackelantern]

If our ability to measure is limited, then how do we know we are measuring correctly?

It's easy to figure out what we are made of, it's much harder to figure out all it's properties and how it exactly works.. What we are made of is no longer a question, it's how it works.. And that is where the limits of measuring come in. And this is what science is trying to figure out

[dianaiad]

If our ability to measure is limited, then how do we know we are measuring correctly?

It's easy to figure out what we are made of,

Sure of that, are you?

it's much harder to figure out all it's properties and how it exactly works.. What we are made of is no longer a question,

That's the second time you've made that claim. Care to prove it?

Oh...yes, they have done a really good job of listing all the elements that comprise the human body...that we can see and measure in some way.

Try looking up 'dark matter,' and see if you still think it's that easy "to figure out what we're made of."


However, feel quite free to prove your claim true...that we have found EVERYTHING that makes up the human body and don't need to go looking any more.

[TheJackelantern]

Sure of that, are you?

Yep.. 100 percent sure.

That's the second time you've made that claim. Care to prove it?

Feel free to stick your hand in a light socket and see what happens...

Try looking up 'dark matter,' and see if you still think it's that easy "to figure out what we're made of."

Dark matter is likely virtual particles in regards to recent research. This which shows a lot of evidence that anti-particles have a negative gravitational force. If verified, this will be a nobel prize, and could revolutionize our space program. But I, nor science has made an official statement on that subject. And dark matter would also be a state of energy.

However, feel quite free to prove your claim true...that we have found EVERYTHING that makes up the human body and don't need to go looking any more.

Yes, because we can convert it to other states of energy and understand it in terms of physics and mass energy equivalence. Yes we know you are made of atoms and atoms made of energy... Most of your mass is comprised of the strong and weak nuclear force. And we know that energy, and things like fire can only be made of the substance of existence itself. There is a reason why things can be measured in joules, or why existence has temperature and thermodynamics. We can also address the energy scale:



And yes life is an electromagnetic phenomenon and also produces visible light besides inferred:



all living creatures emit very weak light, which is a byproduct of biochemical reactions involving free radicals. And this visible light differs from the infrared radiation — an invisible form of light — that comes from body heat. Yes, you are indeed an energy being. .. We can also address these nice little videos

[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]

And how about more specific papers on electromagnetism and life:

http://www.biotele.com/EL/ELTOC.html
http://n.b5z.net/i/u/12000008/f/MSelect ... ook_1_.pdf

Abstract:

Electromagnetism is responsible for practically all the phenomena encountered in daily life, with the exception of gravity. Ordinary matter takes its form as a result of intermolecular forces between individual molecules in matter. Electromagnetism is also the force which holds electrons and protons together inside atoms, which are the building blocks of molecules. This governs the processes involved in chemistry, which arise from interactions between the electrons inside and between atoms.

[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtbe]
[youtube][/youtube]


Now this is where your argument comes in.. Hence, the unification of all the forces requires a lot more investigation. Yes, we haven't yet done this.. But we know it has to be unifiable for anything to work. So this is where science stands right now:

[youtube][/youtube]

So we know we are made of energy, but we don't know exactly how it all works in terms of physics...yet..And the photoelectric effect has brought us into the quantum world:

[youtube][/youtube]

And this brings us Quantum Electrodynamics:

[youtube][/youtube]

And we get then that brings us to where we are here today:

[youtube][/youtube]

So what we have here is a question of how energy works..It's not a question of whether or not energy is involved or that we are dealing with energy entirely... And that is where we honestly are atm.. With the exception that the Higgs is showing signs of it's existence.:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/ ... scientists

But like the scientists they are, they aren't making positive claims until they have overwhelming evidence... And if not found, that will open the door to a slew of other experiments put on hold that involve new physics. So before they go into other physics models in relation to the standard model, they need to either confirm or eliminate the Higgs.

[dianaiad]

Sure of that, are you?

Yep.. 100 percent sure.

That's the second time you've made that claim. Care to prove it?

Feel free to stick your hand in a light socket and see what happens...

....and sticking my hand in a light socket will show that we all know exactly what we are 'made of,' how, precisely?

I think your understanding of the scientific method may be a little off.

Try looking up 'dark matter,' and see if you still think it's that easy "to figure out what we're made of."

Dark matter is likely virtual particles in regards to recent research. This which shows a lot of evidence that anti-particles have a negative gravitational force. If verified, this will be a nobel prize, and could revolutionize our space program. But I, nor science has made an official statement on that subject. And dark matter would also be a state of energy. [/quote]

It might..or might not. The point is, we don't know yet. We do understand this; if dark matter is anywhere, it's everywhere--including within our own bodies. Since we don't KNOW that much about dark matter, it's properties or, frankly, it's physical make up (is it really ONLY a state of energy? And what does that MEAN, precisely?) then you cannot, then, be 100% sure you know what makes up our bodies.

The thing is, Jack, that although we have a pretty good grasp of the elements that make our physical selves, we can't be 100% sure; we don't know what we don't know. It's a good idea to leave the door open for new information.

However, feel quite free to prove your claim true...that we have found EVERYTHING that makes up the human body and don't need to go looking any more.

Yes, because we can convert it to other states of energy and understand it in terms of physics and mass energy equivalence. Yes we know you are made of atoms and atoms made of energy... Most of your mass is comprised of the strong and weak nuclear force. And we know that energy, and things like fire can only be made of the substance of existence itself. There is a reason why things can be measured in joules, or why existence has temperature and thermodynamics. We can also address the energy scale:



And yes life is an electromagnetic phenomenon and also produces visible light besides inferred:



all living creatures emit very weak light, which is a byproduct of biochemical reactions involving free radicals. And this visible light differs from the infrared radiation — an invisible form of light — that comes from body heat. Yes, you are indeed an energy being. .. We can also address these nice little videos

[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]

And how about more specific papers on electromagnetism and life:

http://www.biotele.com/EL/ELTOC.html
http://n.b5z.net/i/u/12000008/f/MSelect ... ook_1_.pdf

Abstract:

Electromagnetism is responsible for practically all the phenomena encountered in daily life, with the exception of gravity. Ordinary matter takes its form as a result of intermolecular forces between individual molecules in matter. Electromagnetism is also the force which holds electrons and protons together inside atoms, which are the building blocks of molecules. This governs the processes involved in chemistry, which arise from interactions between the electrons inside and between atoms.

[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtbe]
[youtube][/youtube]


Now this is where your argument comes in.. Hence, the unification of all the forces requires a lot more investigation. Yes, we haven't yet done this.. But we know it has to be unifiable for anything to work. So this is where science stands right now:

[youtube][/youtube]

So we know we are made of energy, but we don't know exactly how it all works in terms of physics...yet..And the photoelectric effect has brought us into the quantum world:

[youtube][/youtube]

And this brings us Quantum Electrodynamics:

[youtube][/youtube]

And we get then that brings us to where we are here today:

[youtube][/youtube]

So what we have here is a question of how energy works..It's not a question of whether or not energy is involved or that we are dealing with energy entirely... And that is where we honestly are atm.. With the exception that the Higgs is showing signs of it's existence.:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/ ... scientists

But like the scientists they are, they aren't making positive claims until they have overwhelming evidence... And if not found, that will open the door to a slew of other experiments put on hold that involve new physics. So before they go into other physics models in relation to the standard model, they need to either confirm or eliminate the Higgs.

Very nice...and that was fun to go through! Thanks.

Now here's the point I was attempting to make; were you personally involved in making any of these discoveries or forming any of those experiments?

If so, then my point only partially applies to you. If not....

Then you, just like me, believe and are interested in what is being presented here because--and ONLY because---people we trust to tell us the factual truth say so. This is not a claim that they are wrong; after all, we DO trust them. We both believe that they are telling the truth about their experiments and ideas. However, WE believe 'em because we trust them to do so, not because we have personally confirmed what they say. We trust that their experiments are good; that there is no conspiracy to defraud us...that they are honest in their work. That trust is how we humans have been able to get where we are; trust that the other guy is doing what he claims to be doing.

Without it we'd still be hunter-gatherers. Not even that, since hunter-gatherer societies had to have trust that each member would do his or her part in the culture.

My point is--you do NOT believe in science because the information is falsifiable, repeatable, etc. You believe it because people you trust TELL you that it is falsifiable, repeatable, etc. You trust, and trust correctly, that most of 'em are 'telling you true.'

My point is that, since this is how every single one of us come to understand scientific things, to one extent or another, that you need to stop belittling the religious who learn what THEY believe by listening to people THEY trust. It is, after all, the same principle.

The biggest difference, at least to me, is that with religion the individual CAN 'perform the experiment' personally, to either confirm or reject the idea. This isn't always, or even mostly, so in science. In an odd way,. then, the general impression of science vs. religion is upside down; most of us go with 'science' by trust far more than theists do.

After all, someone COULD Have told you that the power coming out of your light socket was Zeus casting personal lightning bolts. Unless you personally did the experimenting that proved him wrong, how would you know?

[TheJackelantern]

Now here's the point I was attempting to make; were you personally involved in making any of these discoveries or forming any of those experiments?

I'm in College and we do all sorts of experiments.. I deal specifically with information science and will be going into cybernetics. But hey, if you want to learn something rather than play an appeal to ignorance arm chair jockey, I might suggest you got to college and actually get involved..

....and sticking my hand in a light socket will show that we all know exactly what we are 'made of,' how, precisely?

If you can't figure that out, you might want to invest in a real education on the subject rather than professing a PHD in intentional ignorance. I am willing to bet you might not even know what the 4 stages of matter are. But I can help you with that too:

[youtube][/youtube]

The state or phase of a given set of matter can change depending on pressure and temperature conditions, transitioning to other phases as these conditions change to favor their existence; for example, solid transitions to liquid with an increase in temperature.

States of matter may also be defined in terms of phase transitions. A phase transition indicates a change in structure and can be recognized by an abrupt change in properties. By this definition, a distinct state of matter is any set of states distinguished from any other set of states by a phase transition. Water can be said to have several distinct solid states.[1] The appearance of superconductivity is associated with a phase transition, so there are superconductive states. Likewise, ferromagnetic states are demarcated by phase transitions and have distinctive properties. When the change of state occurs in stages the intermediate steps are called mesophases. Such phases have been exploited by the introduction of liquid crystal technology.

More recently, distinctions between states have been based on differences in molecular interrelationships. Solid is the state in which intermolecular attractions keep the molecules in fixed spatial relationships. Liquid is the state in which intermolecular attractions keep molecules in proximity, but do not keep the molecules in fixed relationships. Gas is that state in which the molecules are comparatively separated and intermolecular attractions have relatively little effect on their respective motions. Plasma is a highly ionized gas that occurs at high temperatures. The intermolecular forces created by ionic attractions and repulsions give these compositions distinct properties, for which reason plasma is described as a fourth state of matter.[2][3]

Forms of matter that are not composed of molecules and are organized by different forces can also be considered different states of matter. Superfluids (like Fermionic condensate) and the quark–gluon plasma are examples.

But for me to precisely tell you would require me to post notations and equations you will not understand. Hence, I don't have 6 years here to teach you precisely how.. Thus this requires you to get an actual education on the subject since you can't understand the laymen explanation. So if you can't comprehend why you burn or get electrocuted from sticking a fork in a light socket, you need to go to school to understand what energy is, and what electromagnetism is.

I think your understanding of the scientific method may be a little off.

LMAO! No, that would be your problem

It might..or might not. The point is, we don't know yet.

Yep, we don't fully understand the properties of dark matter other than it has to do with energy.. It's basically the mass and force to which holds things like galaxies together. Energy and mass are the same thing, and we are talking about energy and not some mystical pixie fairy in the sky... The research I pointed to dealt with virtual particles..

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-08-dar ... acuum.html

Dark energy is also another subject that deals with vacuum energy. We don't know all the properties of energy when dealing with the symmetry of four interacting forces.. We get a lot of spontaneous symmetry breaking going on in the Universe all the time, and this has a lot to do with why the higgs is being looked for. . We don't go about claiming "Magic done it".. Or a magic nothing GOD done it.

We do understand this; if dark matter is anywhere, it's everywhere--including within our own bodies.

Not necessarily, and if dark matter passes through your body, it wouldn't change anything. X-rays and other Cosmic rays do this all the time.

Since we don't KNOW that much about dark matter, it's properties or, frankly, it's physical make up (is it really ONLY a state of energy? And what does that MEAN, precisely?) then you cannot, then, be 100% sure you know what makes up our bodies.

Sure I can.. It's energy.. and states of energy are states of matter. Vacuum energy is the ground state of matter.. Fun stuff!.. And yes we are 100 percent sure even if we don't fully understand dark matter.

Example:

We don't fully know everything about Earth as it changes every day. But we do know what it is fundamentally..

[TheJackelantern]

My point is--you do NOT believe in science because the information is falsifiable, repeatable, etc. You believe it because people you trust TELL you that it is falsifiable, repeatable, etc. You trust, and trust correctly, that most of 'em are 'telling you true.'

falsifiable only deals with being open to challenge and further information. Some things are inherently UN-falsifiable simply because they can not be falsified.. It's subjective. .. And yes I trust them, I can test it myself.. And if you went to college too and actually got an education and got involved, you could to.. Empirically supported positions are far more trust worthy than religious beliefs when it comes to trust. It's not even in the same ball park... religious beliefs rest entirely on pure assertion and ignorance.. Does this mean I am belittling them? No, it's making correct statement and nothing more.

The biggest difference, at least to me, is that with religion the individual CAN 'perform the experiment' personally, to either confirm or reject the idea.

This is called making things up and just believing it because you can.. Hey I can do that too..:

The Pixie Fairy Lords killed your GOD today in a heated battle for Eternal control of existence.

After all, someone COULD Have told you that the power coming out of your light socket was Zeus casting personal lightning bolts. Unless you personally did the experimenting that proved him wrong, how would you know?

Because we can do it ourselves.. And are you saying your GOD is our slave? Yeah, we make Zeus cast sparks through Physics lol! That's precious! Yeah, appeals to ignorance are worthless arguments.

[Baz]

How do obviously well educated people get so closed minded as to think they can be 100% certain about anything?

I find it irritating when it comes from some religious points of view, but to some degree it is expected, when a lot of religious teachings are based around blindly following some guru or other.

For somebody to take that stance from a scientific point of view must by most people’s thinking be bed science.

From my point of view its easer to disregard bad science than bad religion. (not that I see them as in anyway opposites )

[dianaiad]

Now here's the point I was attempting to make; were you personally involved in making any of these discoveries or forming any of those experiments?

I'm in College and we do all sorts of experiments.. I deal specifically with information science and will be going into cybernetics. But hey, if you want to learn something rather than play an appeal to ignorance arm chair jockey, I might suggest you got to college and actually get involved..

Y'know, that's a good idea. I could use a few more initials after my name, come to think of it; my signature doesn't go QUITE off the end of the page yet.

....and sticking my hand in a light socket will show that we all know exactly what we are 'made of,' how, precisely?

If you can't figure that out, you might want to invest in a real education on the subject rather than professing a PHD in intentional ignorance.

Oh, humor me. TELL me how sticking my hand in a light socket will show me what humans are made out of. Other, that is, than stuff that will burn.

I am willing to bet you might not even know what the 4 stages of matter are. But I can help you with that too:

Why, THANK you, Jack. I actually was under the impression that the four elements were fire, earth, air and water.

But for me to precisely tell you would require me to post notations and equations you will not understand. Hence, I don't have 6 years here to teach you precisely how.. Thus this requires you to get an actual education on the subject since you can't understand the laymen explanation. So if you can't comprehend why you burn or get electrocuted from sticking a fork in a light socket, you need to go to school to understand what energy is, and what electromagnetism is.

So, ultimately, all your verbiage is to let me know that all matter is made up of energy...well, duh. That's a bit of a weasel, though.

Jack. Your claim was NOT that I would burn if I put my hand in a light socket. Your claim was that putting my hand in a light socket would show me what elements I was made of. You know, there's quite a list of those, and I guarantee you that, unless there is a gas chromatograph (or other, similar, measuring device) somewhere about, and I was in a state to read it (and separate those gasses which come from ME from those which come from the 'not me' that also ended up burning) that sticking my hand in a light socket would not achieve that goal. Since that is so, I can only assume that your advice was not only less than serious...indeed, down-right mean spirited along the lines of 'stick it where the sun don't shine."

Just a hint, though: before you go around doing that sort of thing, you should be very certain what the educational background of your target actually is.

But I AM glad you are in College. Really.

I think your understanding of the scientific method may be a little off.

LMAO! No, that would be your problem

It might..or might not. The point is, we don't know yet.

Yep, we don't fully understand the properties of dark matter other than it has to do with energy.. It's basically the mass and force to which holds things like galaxies together. Energy and mass are the same thing, and we are talking about energy and not some mystical pixie fairy in the sky... The research I pointed to dealt with virtual particles..

Did you actually read what you just wrote? If so, consider my point made...your claim is that you are 100% positive that you know what we are made of...and I absolutely guarantee that your physics and biology professors would cringe if they heard you say that.

Dark energy is also another subject that deals with vacuum energy. We don't know all the properties of energy when dealing with the symmetry of four interacting forces.. We get a lot of spontaneous symmetry breaking going on in the Universe all the time, and this has a lot to do with why the higgs is being looked for. . We don't go about claiming "Magic done it".. Or a magic nothing GOD done it.

While I commend your ability to research through youtube, you are wandering off the topic a bit. BTW, I'm from a belief system that doesn't figure that just because WE can describe the process, it means that God did NOT do it, nor that saying 'god did it' means we must not, and can not, describe the process. In fact, we believe we are SUPPOSED to go looking, describing, and finding out how. Learning how.

Now, I realize that this might put a kink in your assumptions, Jack. I rather hope not, though, since your assumptions regarding my lack of education and of science are actually rather entertaining: a bit like watching a Monty Python sketch.

We do understand this; if dark matter is anywhere, it's everywhere--including within our own bodies.

Not necessarily, and if dark matter passes through your body, it wouldn't change anything. X-rays and other Cosmic rays do this all the time.

Wait. What?

You are claiming that "X-rays and other Cosmic rays do this all the time" and DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING?

I suggest that you take human biology 101. I imagine that it's an undergrad prerequisite, isn't it? Usually is.

Since we don't KNOW that much about dark matter, it's properties or, frankly, it's physical make up (is it really ONLY a state of energy? And what does that MEAN, precisely?) then you cannot, then, be 100% sure you know what makes up our bodies.

Sure I can.. It's energy.. and states of energy are states of matter. Vacuum energy is the ground state of matter.. Fun stuff!.. And yes we are 100 percent sure even if we don't fully understand dark matter.

All that, to get here.

Jack, you posted a great many fun things, and I thank you for all of 'em. I enjoyed watching the youtube videos, and learning new things. Really, I'm serious about that. I also commend your enthusiasm for what you are learning. Keep being enthusiastic.

...........just......don't assume that you know everything, and that of course any theist is an uneducated red neck without a grain of sense. Such hubris and arrogance will not serve you well.

Remember that among the most influential inventors of the scientific method were Muslim scholars, Roger Bacon (A Franciscan Friar) and Isaac Newton, a monotheist who wrote more on religion than he did on scientific thought. It would behoove you to remember who first got the knowledge that you are so gleefully acquiring, and stop assuming that science and religion are always enemies. They are not.