Problems with the Problem of Pain

[liamconnor]

The supposal of an omnipotent, omniscient and good God is often attacked on the grounds of the presence of pain in the world. Such attacks paint the world as experienced so terrible, that one wonders why there are not more suicides: like 99% of humanity!

Yet every talk I have ever had with any atheist has revealed a relish in living.

It is as if there is just enough pain the world to reject theism; but not enough to go out and truly have a good time with friends over a pint of beer.

How do we reconcile the painting of reality made by atheists (who use the argument of the problem of evil: not all do) and the lives they live? Is this philosophical hypocrisy? Is it hypocritical to denounce a good god on the grounds that people are starving in Somalia while typing on a laptop and eating a burger from Wendy's?

(I suppose I should add that any atheist who adds his bit obviously acknowledges his or her access to a computer! and the internet! to the health and education that enables him or her to engage in this debate!)

[Tcg]

Your arguments simply aren't making any sense PinSeeker.

To you. That, I do know. They don't make sense... to you. But that really doesn't mean a whole lot, does it?

In a debate with me it means you are losing the debate. And that's all that would be relevant.

Uncompelling apologetics is failed apologetics.

This clearly reveals the effectiveness of Christian apologetics. It convinces only those who are already convinced.

Actually no, it convinces those whose heart is no longer in its natural state.

Yes, those who are already convinced of the mythology you and other apologists are pushing. You are simply stating the same thing I have said with odd code words from your mythology.

The mind always follows the heart.

I'd ask you to support this unsupported assertion with some kind of facts if it mattered in any way. Given it's total irrelevance, I won't waste my time.

[Divine Insight]

But hey, the next time I get into a debate, in order to win, I'll just say to the other guy, "Your arguments don't make any sense," and walk away feeling all good about myself...

You are more than welcome to do that.

But keep in mind, I;m not the one who's trying to convince people that some imaginary invisible God exists who makes people suffer just so they can grow to love him. However that's supposed to work.

Adolf Hitler could make you suffer too. Would that make you love him?

And by the way, Adolf Hitler may have reasons that are far beyond your ability to comprehend. Just love him and you'll be given the reasons why it all makes sense later.

[OnceConvinced]

Would be nice to hear from atheists, should God care of people if they are unthankful egoistical bastards when things are well and when things are not well, people are hypocrite cranks that don’t take responsibility of their own actions.

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[PinSeeker]

Yes, those who are already convinced of the mythology you and other apologists are pushing. You are simply stating the same thing I have said with odd code words from your mythology.

Nope and nope. You can say it as many times as you want. But that won't make it true.

The mind always follows the heart.

I'd ask you to support this unsupported assertion with some kind of facts if it mattered in any way.

Surely, you would agree that you can't go against who you are deep down, not for any extended amount of time, anyway. Surely you would agree, wouldn't you? You will always be true to yourself, eventually. Ergo, the mind always follows the heart.

Given it's total irrelevance, I won't waste my time.

Ah, yeah, when something doesn't fit my narrative, brand it as "irrelevant." Gotcha. Note to self.

[PinSeeker]

But hey, the next time I get into a debate, in order to win, I'll just say to the other guy, "Your arguments don't make any sense," and walk away feeling all good about myself...

You are more than welcome to do that.

Well, thank you, but that would be a pretty foolish thing to do.

But keep in mind, I'm not the one who's trying to convince people...

Well, again, I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. My job is only to relate God's truth.

...that some imaginary invisible God exists who makes people suffer just so they can grow to love him.

And this is not even close to what I'm saying. I get that you want to twist it into that, in order to create a straw-man argument, but that's really quite dishonest. But hey, you're your own man.

[Divine Insight]

Well, again, I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. My job is only to relate God's truth.

So then you are openly confessing that you are not on this debate site to debate, but rather you are only here to preach?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 9 by PinSeeker]

Or (6) -- which is the case --that He allows evil/suffering because it serves His purposes, which are far greater and far higher than we can imagine.

Why call this creature good? Isn't this just a description of an evil creature, one who is committing evil acts (or allowing evil acts to happen when he could stop it)?
Number 6 here can be applied to literally any creature or person one might describe as evil, and gives them the exact same pass on the morality check as you give your god.

In fact let me ask you a question: you say the purposes are far greater, far higher than we can imagine (we, being humans I can presume).
Are we humans morally bound, as in is it moral, to follow the plans/purposes of a being whose purposes you say you can't even imagine or understand?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 20 by otseng]

Jesus was not necessarily making here a philosophical statement about God's qualities, such as omnipotentence.

Instead of being omnipotent, the Bible describes God as "the most high God":

Hmm...seems to me then that you're inadvertently refuting the Modal Ontological Argument, in that (at least from what I can see) you're saying that God isn't necessarily omnipotent (the highest one can imagine) but simply the highest God there simply is, which doesn't have to equate with the highest one can imagine.
God doesn't have to meet an infinite-X quality, but has a lesser-than-infinite-X quality. Since the MOA deals with what one can imagine, this then means that your God is not the real real God.
I know a certain someone on the website who might be put out with you...

[rikuoamero]

So he arranged that your brother would commit suicide specifically so that you could grow?

He allowed (not "caused") it to happen. God causes all things -- all things, even those that we consider painful -- to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. And as James says:

• Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Are you sure you don't want to reconsider this conclusion?

Well, I might, if such a silly conclusion were really my conclusion.

So what happened to your brother then? Did he go to hell?

Or was he so fully "grown" in his relationship with God that he was more ready to go be with God then you are?

Your arguments simply aren't making any sense PinSeeker. You are clearly not thinking them through to the bitter end.

Pinseeker's God allows the rape of little children...like my sisters. Pinseeker's God was there, present in the room when it happened, he had the ability to save them, prevent the horrible act...but didn't.

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

go to 13 mins 20 secs for the relevant part

Apparently a morally perfect being...allows for horribly evil acts, like murder and child rape...because apparently he has a purpose, that we can't even imagine. It will apparently all make sense after we die.
I have higher expectations of a quote unquote actual morally perfect being. Certain other people are apparently quite fine with a lesser expectation.

[rikuoamero]

Well, again, I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. My job is only to relate God's truth.

So then you are openly confessing that you are not on this debate site to debate, but rather you are only here to preach?

Not the first time I've seen this attitude from theists. Actually, now that I think about it...I've never once seen it from atheists/agnostics on this site. Never once had anyone in our 'camp' say they're here just to preach, not to debate.