Is the Second Coming of Jesus a Hoax?

[Rational Atheist]

For debate:

Is the Second Coming of Jesus a Hoax?

Arguably the most important doctrine of Christianity is the doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ, also known as the "Final Judgment." This is the key event that Christians look forward to--the event when Jesus comes down from the clouds of Heaven, to rescue the righteous believers and save them from the wrath of God, while raining merciless judgment upon the unbelievers in the fires of Hell. But what most Christians likely don't know about this "second coming" is that the Bible actually predicted that it would occur soon after Jesus walked the earth. And, as it turns out, the Bible actually says that Jesus predicted exactly when it would occur, and, clearly, this timeframe has passed.

Mark 13:9-30 states:

9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

So, apparently, the second coming was supposed to occur within the generation alive during Jesus' time. But many apologists object to this and claim that the "generation" referred to in the Mark passage is either referring to a future generation, or means something other than the standard definition of the word "generation." And this objection could be valid IF there were not other scriptures containing the exact same language (and hence the same prophecy) that used different language to specify when the events would occur. As it turns out, Matthew Chapter 10 contains the exact same prophecies (I have underlined the common words), and further specifies that these events would take place within the disciples' lifetimes, specifically, they would be rescued before they finished running away from their persecutors, through the cities of Israel, as we can read in Matthew 10:16-23:

“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.


Take note of the underlined passages. Mark 13:9-13 and Matthew 10:17-22 contain nearly the exact same words, so there is no question that they are referring to the same events. The second coming of Christ (along with the destruction of the solar system, the earth, and many of the stars) was supposed to occur, according to the bible, within the lifetimes of the people alive in Jesus' time, so no later than 100 AD. Obviously this didn't happen. So, in my opinion, we are forced to conclude that the return of Christ is a fable, in the same class as the 2012 doomsday hoax, and other failed Armageddon predictions.

[Miles]

When you read poetry -- say, a Robert Frost poem -- is your inclination to interpret everything in the poem literally? Or do you expect that poetry often contains figurative language?

I do, I do

Good. See, that wasn't hard.

Okay, another question about literary genres -- Tcg, Rational Atheist, and brunumb can feel free to answer this one too.

When you read apocalyptic literature -- such as Daniel and Revelation -- is it your your inclination to interpret everything literally? Or do you expect that apocalyptic literature often contains figurative language?

I consider the book of Revelation to be an apocalyptic prophecy with an introduction written in letters to a few churches.

I'm not all that familiar with the the book of Daniel so I had to review it a bit, but, like the book of Revelation, I don't find any poetry in it. In main It seems to be made up of visions and tales to be taken at face value.

Neither do I see any of these writings---the random verses I bothered to read in both Revelation and Daniel---that were meant to be taken figuratively.

However, if you regard some biblical writings to be poetry, or even figurative verses, feel free to point them out. I'm willing to take a look.


.

[brunumb]

I don't consider the Bible to be poetry.

I'm just going to assume that you recognize that the Bible is a compilation of many different works that span various literary genres, and that several of those works contain poetry. If that's not your understanding, let me know, and we can clear-up any confusion on this point.

If that is all it is then it doesn't really matter how you read it. Where it matters is how one interprets the content if you believe that it is meant to be the inspired word of God. As I mentioned before, the alleged fate of your immortal soul depends on you getting things right. Therefore distinguishing between what is merely poetry and what is to be regarded as literal truth becomes important. It doesn't matter with any other literature. To me it is just a collection of thoughts, opinions, propaganda material, with some questionable history thrown in for good measure and it therefore doesn't really matter.

[JehovahsWitness]

I'm not all that familiar with the the book of Daniel so I had to review it a bit, but, like the book of Revelation, I don't find any poetry in it.

Emphasis MINE

How do you yourself distinguish between poetry and prose? What would have alerted you the presence of poerty in Revelation or Daniel?




JW


FURTHER READING Poetry vs. Prose in the Bible by R.P. NETTELHORST
https://m.jpost.com/blogs/through-a-gla ... ble-416518

RELATED POSTS






Does the bible include example of METONYMY?
viewtopic.php?p=998339#p998339

[Miles]

I'm not all that familiar with the the book of Daniel so I had to review it a bit, but, like the book of Revelation, I don't find any poetry in it.

Emphasis MINE

How do you yourself distinguish between poetry and prose? What would have alerted you the presence of poerty in Revelation or Daniel?

If it went like this:

I always hug my underwear
as soon as it is dry
I hug all the laundry
Let me tell you why
If you open up your dryer
as soon as it is done
your pile of clothes will warm you
like a blanket made of Sun!

Author: Amy Ludwig VanDerwater

..................

.

[JehovahsWitness]

I'm not all that familiar with the the book of Daniel so I had to review it a bit, but, like the book of Revelation, I don't find any poetry in it.

Emphasis MINE

How do you yourself distinguish between poetry and prose? What would have alerted you the presence of poerty in Revelation or Daniel?

If it went like this:

I always hug my underwear
as soon as it is dry
I hug all the laundry
Let me tell you why
If you open up your dryer
as soon as it is done
your pile of clothes will warm you
like a blanket made of Sun!

Author: Amy Ludwig VanDerwater

I take it you are not claiming a poem is only a poem if it mentions underwear; evidently, you are not going to find the same or similar words in every poem, therefore can you explain ...

• what poetic techniques/literary devices are you pointing to in the above quotation that you would expect to fine in another work, so as to identify it as "poetry"?

• Do you believe ALL such devices must be employed in a work to thus qualify?

• And do you feel you could identify said devices in a language other than English*?

* I take it you do not think poetry exists exclusively in English.

JW



FURTHER READING

Literary Devices in Poems Class 9, Examples, Explanation, Common Literary Devices
https://www.successcds.net/learn-englis ... poems.html

Poetry vs. Prose in the Bible by R.P. NETTELHORST
https://m.jpost.com/blogs/through-a-gla ... ble-416518

https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... phors.html
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... e-and.html

[SeekerofTruth]

Taking a few excepts out of the Bible and trying to find the truth is like taking a few random pieces of a puzzle and thinking you see the completed image. The greater question is what’s the reason? If you dismiss the Bible then by all means, live your carnal existence as it pleases you. Your days are finite. Why spend time debating pointlessness. However, if you seek Truth and answers then the Book is quite clear. Why is it hard to believe that the Revelation of John is not factual? He might have a hard time putting into words what he sees but try to imagine what he sees. Rev. 6 describes what I imagine the flyby of a large cosmic body would cause: a major earthquake, islands moving out of place, a meteor shower, a major solar eclipse, while the kings, wealthy and military men hid in bunkers currently built into the mountains. Of course this would be foreseeable to a Heavenly Father. The end times described are completely easy to understand as written. Following this catastrophe, they put their hope in someone, or something, to rule them. Enter the “Antichrist”. Once he establishes his authority he reveals himself making war on the Saints until the true King returns to meet His 144000 on Mt Zion in chapter 14. This battle (sickle into the wine press, blood up to a horses bridle), begins Christ’s military campaign culminating in the famed Battle of Armageddon. Seems pretty straightforward. We and this world were created by the Father to serve Him. We are intellectual property. There was some mismanagement and now the owner’s Son is returning to take control. It’s all very simple.

[William]

It’s all very simple.

Such were the minds of those who made up the stories and the minds of those who believed the stories. We now understand that there is nothing simple about life and the real stories therein.
You look to the skies for a savior when all along you have the power to save yourself - even from such stories.

[SeekerofTruth]

[Replying to William in post #48]

Do you believe there were civilizations that preceded this current one?

[William]

[Replying to William in post #48]

Do you believe there were civilizations that preceded this current one?

No. Rather I don't have to believe what is an actual fact...but what of it? Why are you asking?

As to what I think in relation to the thread topic, see [post#2]

[historia]

When you read apocalyptic literature -- such as Daniel and Revelation -- is it your your inclination to interpret everything literally? Or do you expect that apocalyptic literature often contains figurative language?

I consider the book of Revelation to be an apocalyptic prophecy with an introduction written in letters to a few churches.

I'm not all that familiar with the the book of Daniel so I had to review it a bit, but, like the book of Revelation, I don't find any poetry in it. In main It seems to be made up of visions and tales to be taken at face value.

If you're not familiar with these books of the Bible, I would recommend reading the Encyclopedia Britannica article on apocalyptic literature. It explains that apocalyptic literature is a literary genre that "employs esoteric language," is "expressed in complicated, often bizarre symbolism" [a], and is "characterized by strange symbols, numbers, images, and parables or allegories that represent people and historical situations" [b].

In other words, apocalyptic literature is decidedly not to be taken "at face value." Rather, it is a literary genre that regularly employs all kinds of figurative language.

Neither do I see any of these writings---the random verses I bothered to read in both Revelation and Daniel---that were meant to be taken figuratively.

The examples are legion. Revelation 13, for example, describes two beasts. As the Wikipedia article on the Beast of Revelation rightly notes, the two beasts represent the Roman Empire (particularly the emperor Nero) and the Imperial Cult, respectively, and so are meant to be taken figuratively.

So let me restate my question:

When you read apocalyptic literature -- such as Daniel and Revelation -- is it your inclination to interpret everything literally? Or do you expect that apocalyptic literature often contains figurative language?