Who is correct, Paul or the Philosophers?

[Tcg]

The following verses are often presented by some Christians as evidence that everyone knows God exists:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

There are however many Christian theists who rely on and present in debate one or more of the many so-called Arguments for the Existence of God.

Would these arguments be needed if Paul is right in his claim from Romans 1?


Tcg

[christian001]

Strong arguments are still needed to convince people who suppress the truth as the verse says. e.g. https://answering-atheism.com/fine-tuni ... -universe/

[Tcg]

Strong arguments are still needed to convince people who suppress the truth as the verse says. e.g. https://answering-atheism.com/fine-tuni ... -universe/

As what verse says? And even if you show us which verse, why should anyone care what it says?


Tcg

[Avoice]

[Replying to Tcg in post #1]

I can’t believe you are asking who is correct. Whether it comes from Paul or the philosophers. As if it is one of them that speaks the truth.

How is it that God isn’t among the contestants?

To answer your question:
Neither

Truth comes from the mouth of God. For those that believe in him. Those who trust man will choose man

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Tcg in post #1]

I can’t believe you are asking who is correct. Whether it comes from Paul or the philosophers. As if it is one of them that speaks the truth.

How is it that God isn’t among the contestants?

To answer your question:
Neither

Truth comes from the mouth of God. For those that believe in him. Those who trust man will choose man

The problem there is that those who claim that Truth comes from the mouth of God (and presumably that is what they relate to others) not only get things wrong, but disagree with each other. Can you wonder why those who rely on the findings of man (science) which has such a good record of correcting the errors of God -taught wisdom that even Creationists long for scientific validation of their beliefs, think that man, for all his faults, is more reliable for truth than those who apparently think their get their answers from God?

Cue. Truth doesn't mean facts but Faith.

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #1]

I can’t believe you are asking who is correct. Whether it comes from Paul or the philosophers. As if it is one of them that speaks the truth.

By obvious implication, I was asking only about this one issue. They can't both be right, but they can both be wrong. The later gets my vote.


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

Strong arguments are still needed to convince people who suppress the truth as the verse says. e.g. https://answering-atheism.com/fine-tuni ... -universe/

Fine tuning may be a useful apologetic to argue for an intelligent creator. But it does not tell us which one or which religion, is true.

[Replying to Tcg in post #1]

I can’t believe you are asking who is correct. Whether it comes from Paul or the philosophers. As if it is one of them that speaks the truth.

How is it that God isn’t among the contestants?

To answer your question:
Neither

Truth comes from the mouth of God. For those that believe in him. Those who trust man will choose man

God does not speak. Only Paul, Philosophers, theologians, historians, evangelical apologists and rationalist Bible -critics. Which one is telling the truth comes from evidence and logic, not from faith claims that thise or that is straight from God (name your own).

[The Nice Centurion]

...Would these arguments be needed if Paul is right in his claim from Romans 1?

It depends on the situation. By what I know, the arguments are usually because someone asks them.

I believe all people know deep inside of them that God is real. And I think knowledge of God's existence is not very relevant, crucial thing is, does person understand what is good and right and does he want to live accordingly. Eternal life is promised for righteous, not for those who know God is real.

You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder.
James 2:19

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Hm-but you believe that all people think god real.

[1213]

...Would these arguments be needed if Paul is right in his claim from Romans 1?

It depends on the situation. By what I know, the arguments are usually because someone asks them.

I believe all people know deep inside of them that God is real. And I think knowledge of God's existence is not very relevant, crucial thing is, does person understand what is good and right and does he want to live accordingly. Eternal life is promised for righteous, not for those who know God is real.

You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder.
James 2:19

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Hm-but you believe that all people think god real.

Sorry, I was not accurate enough in that post, I meant, eternal life is not because person knows God is real.

[TRANSPONDER]

...Would these arguments be needed if Paul is right in his claim from Romans 1?

It depends on the situation. By what I know, the arguments are usually because someone asks them.

I believe all people know deep inside of them that God is real. And I think knowledge of God's existence is not very relevant, crucial thing is, does person understand what is good and right and does he want to live accordingly. Eternal life is promised for righteous, not for those who know God is real.

You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder.
James 2:19

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Hm-but you believe that all people think god real.

Sorry, I was not accurate enough in that post, I meant, eternal life is not because person knows God is real.

Ok. But clarifying faithclaims is not the primary question, but which claims we should believe - Paul's or the 'philosophers'. Which really means the Bible or science, because Philosophy has always been trying to work out logical exp[lanation based in the knowledge of the time and when science finds out that instinct and morals are biological rather than God - given, Philosophy has to shuffle bit to catch up. Religion shuffled much more reluctantly, but shuffle it does.

To reiterate the point of the op, then, Paul was appealing to ID and he was wrong; the universe, world and life shew forth the glory of materialist science and not (on any evidence yet presented) of a god

Name you own, anyway. Paul is wrong, and the Philosophers (or rather the Science that puts them straight) are right.

[1213]

... the universe, world and life shew forth the glory of materialist science and not (on any evidence yet presented) of a god
...

There is no evidence that life could come out of nothing not from dead material by chance, so why do you believe it?