Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

[POI]

For many atheists, the go-to topic for debate, is "divine hiddenness". I do not see it spoke about much here? I figured it would be worthy of discussion. Below is a theist's response/rebuttal to the argument:



For Debate:

1. In claim #1, the theist states Abraham, Joseph, and Jesus have their requests ultimately fulfilled at a later date. Why do countless victims of rape, torture, AND murder go unfulfilled in their requests to be saved?

2. In claim #2, the theist states hiddenness does seem to promote a relationship in the long run. This is clearly not the case, as many will die as atheists -- (likely me, unless He is going to reveal Himself to me later in a way for which I will not doubt His mere existence).

3. In claim #3, God remains hidden from the ones who would rebel. I guess this means if I never feel I received His presence, then that means I would have rebelled anyways? Well then, should I ignore the Bible, where He presented Himself to many who reject Him then?

I'll stop here... The theist mentions other stuff, but nothing seemingly worthy of intellectual discussion.

I hope you theists can come up with BETTER reasons than the ones given in the video?

Or, in conclusion, apply Occam's Razor for the following question: Why doesn't God intervene, when prayed upon, where ultimate finite tragedy strikes?

A): Because God does not exist... One assumption

OR

B): God does exist, but.... Commence additional assumptions

******************************

A) needs only one assumption, B) needs more....

[1213]

...No, they are begging, asking, pleading with God to rescue them from their rape, torture, and murder. ...

Can you show one person who is praying that and is still being raped?

[1213]

...Prayer has been shown to not work....

That is not true. There is no good reason to think God would always do what people demand Him to do the way people demand it.

And actually this leads to an interesting question. Bible tells God hears the prayer of the righteous. How many people think they are righteous? In my experience, it is usually only atheist who think they are righteous, many Christians say they are not. But would an atheist pray to God?

Yahweh is far from the wicked, But he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Pro. 15:29

[1213]

... refer to the written guarantee that whatever you ask for in prayer even to uproot a tree or a mountain, that is what God will do. ...

Could it be that you have misunderstood something, because it is also said:

Yahweh is far from the wicked, But he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Pro. 15:29

Can you show a righteous person whose prayers have not been answered as promised?

[brunumb]

... refer to the written guarantee that whatever you ask for in prayer even to uproot a tree or a mountain, that is what God will do. ...

Could it be that you have misunderstood something, because it is also said:

Yahweh is far from the wicked, But he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Pro. 15:29

Can you show a righteous person whose prayers have not been answered as promised?

Doesn't matter.
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.
So, no prayers answered.

[TRANSPONDER]

... refer to the written guarantee that whatever you ask for in prayer even to uproot a tree or a mountain, that is what God will do. ...

Could it be that you have misunderstood something, because it is also said:

Yahweh is far from the wicked, But he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Pro. 15:29

Can you show a righteous person whose prayers have not been answered as promised?

Could it be that you either don't know your Bible or are hoping that I don't, in quoting something OT when there is Matthew 21.21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. 22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

And I think I can show examples of those who prayed to God to save them - those who died in Massacres and Holy wars,in civil wars, and the battles between North and South. Do you suppose they didn't pray to God to not be killed and yet they died? Those who dies trapped in collapsed minds, didn't pray to be saved? But we don't need to go so far as tragedy. Those sportspersons who pray to win before the game - well, one side has to lose.

Those people who lost a fortune in financial crashes surely prayed not to and yet they did. In the recent wars of the US, I imagine four out of five prayed to be saved, and yet there were casualties. Can you give us a good reason to see all this as a failure of the promise to grant whatever is asked for in Faith to be given as promised? Of course I can't interview those who died to ask whether they prayed to be saved. And it's a built in escape that anyone still able to talk can point to that fact as answered prayer. But not just saved from death or injury, but anything like elections. One is elected governor but the other one isn't, and you know that no non believer can ever be elected.

You must recognise that there are millions of people who ask for this or that to be granted and don't get it, and indeed can't both sides get it.

Cue: various excuses.

[Clownboat]

...Prayer has been shown to not work....

That is not true. There is no good reason to think God would always do what people demand Him to do the way people demand it.

I never said that a god would always do what people demand. You should pray to your god to help you with debate as it just might be the God evidence some of us need if we see your debate improve.

And actually this leads to an interesting question. Bible tells God hears the prayer of the righteous. How many people think they are righteous?

Please explain how you expect me to come up with a number. Your question is ridiculous.

In my experience, it is usually only atheist who think they are righteous,

Well, there may be something to that. I'm not an atheist, but I am now more righteous then I was as a bible believing Christian. I am more Christ like now after having been set free from my beliefs.

Perhaps we can even test this.
We could check the percentage of atheists that think we should stone homosexuals and compare that to the percentage of Christians that would think such a thing.
Surely this small sample would show atheists as more righteous then Christians.

But would an atheist pray to God?

As likely as you are to pray to Allah.

Yahweh is far from the wicked, But he hears the prayer of the righteous.

Should I quote the Quran back at you?
Yes 1213, don't think about it, just drink the Kool-Aid.

Yahweh is wicked though. It's as if you haven't read the book about this particular god concept.
Would you dash babies against rocks, or order genocide? I wouldn't because such things are wicked.

[Clownboat]

Yahweh is far from the wicked, But he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Pro. 15:29

Romans 3:10 NIV
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one

Matthew 21:21 NIV
Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, Go, throw yourself into the sea, and it will be done.

Go Bible!

[TRANSPONDER]

Yahweh is far from the wicked, But he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Pro. 15:29

Romans 3:10 NIV
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one

Matthew 21:21 NIV
Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, Go, throw yourself into the sea, and it will be done.

Go Bible!

Also Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. But not Luke, remarkably. Why not, given that the synoptics are supposed to be based on a common original - often claimed to be Mark, but it can't be - and this is evidence of that. It is because Luke does not have the cursing of the fig - tree which is where this guarantee of prayer working comes from. It is an example of Material (like the Other feeding of 4,000 and I seem to recall the syrio -Phoenecian / Canaanite woman, and other 'Decapolis' material) and of course the aramaic words on the cross; material common to Matthew and Mark but not found in Luke. I recall the elaboration of the death of John, too, but I may be wrong there. So double thanks from the Templeton foundation for me as I explain what the parable of the fig -tree is all about (1) and that the whole passage is additional material and Not what Jesus ever said, so God is not bound by the promised guarantee to answer all prayers affirmitively.

(1) The jumping Jews of Jerusalem could have accepted Jesus and been saved, but the time was not right for that, so they rejected Jesus and their city was dun by the Romans as a result. There are many Gospel hints that the sack of Jerusalem was blamed on them not accepting Jesus, but (so the Christians told it) killing him, even though it was the Romans did it. I know it makes no sense even with an omniscient God, but ..Hey...who said that religion had to make sense?

[POI]

...No, they are begging, asking, pleading with God to rescue them from their rape, torture, and murder. ...

Can you show one person who is praying that and is still being raped?

Well, it's rather difficult to ask a raped, tortured, and murdered person whether God EVER answered their prayer requests But, I would gather it is not difficult to conclude that a great many of them pleaded to be rescued. However, as a Christian, you also believe in intercessory prayer as well. It's safe to say you have prayed for others, in some capacity, and will continue to do so. Being this is the case, let's watch a video, where Christians pray for the children of trafficking and murder. It's also quite reasonable to conclude many parents and loved ones, of these trafficked and murdered victims, were praying for the safe return of these children. Only to instead be made aware they were not:



Further, I think you missed the bigger picture. I trust we would agree that many small children are raped/murdered. They may even be raped for years, and then murdered. You mean to tell me that NOT ONE of them prayed to the Christian God for rescue? What would be the odds of that assumption?

So once again, what is more likely:

A) God does not exist to entertain requests
B) God does exist to entertain requests, BUT..... (add more assumptions)

Which conclusion needs more assumption, A) or B)?

Since you claim that the Christian God intervenes from time to time, seems as though you will need to engage in mental gymnastics to provide assumption after assumption, as to why God ignores countless rescue requests of the trafficked and murdered?.?.?.?.?

[POI]

Yahweh is far from the wicked, But he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Pro. 15:29

Romans 3:10 NIV
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one

Matthew 21:21 NIV
Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, Go, throw yourself into the sea, and it will be done.

Go Bible!

Looks like '1213' is deciding to (go down with the ship). He uses this same rationale in another thread (viewtopic.php?t=39327&start=158).