Are Lies Immoral? If so, Why?

[Purple Knight]

Question for debate: Is lying inherently wrong? If so, why?

Christians believe God is perfect and that God doesn't lie. Is this simply a choice, is it necessary for us lesser beings to be able to trust, is it itself a deception, or is it an inherent part of perfection that a being should not lie?

Is it possible that lying is wrong for us, but not God, or vice-versa?

Is it uniquely or especially wrong to lie to a child? Or perhaps uniquely or especially permissible?

[Purple Knight]

There isn't any substantial thing called a "Lie", other than it's a narrative that intentionally changes the description of reality. If you ask me if a color is navy blue, and I agree but I say it's more dark blue to me (though I really think it's navy blue) - is that a lie worth calling an immoral act?

I don't think there even is a truth to that kind of thing, so I don't think it can be lied about. I hate the definition that requires lies to be intentional, but even if you accept that definition, there has to be a truth you're comparing it to, to even judge whether it can reasonably be called a lie or not.

But even so, if it's situational to you, try to imagine a situation someone would use this lie. I can really only imagine lying about this to gaslight someone and make them doubt their own judgement.

I'm sure we could come up with many cases where a person lies - but it is completely unimportant. To me, the importance is the ramification - not the actual act.

The only danger of this, is that it causes people to always say they lied to achieve a good end, even when they lied to harm someone. If you also believe we can't hold people accountable for results, only intentions, then believing it's about the ramification is totally ruinous.

Boat: You just told that guy there was a tasty apple over there, and he fell off that cliff and died! You basically murdered him!
Liar: Well, I thought there was a tasty apple over there. Besides, he was a Nazi.
Boat: Oh, okay.

In any case if lies only work if the majority of people don't lie, what does that say about the subjective morality of lying?

Purple Knight wrote an excellent post (#20) in this regard : viewtopic.php?p=1123215#p1123215

Further on that point ↓

For example, if you see a woman in a car accident - her children are clearly dead - and as she is dying, she asks, "Are my children ok?" Do you tell the truth? I can't imagine a more horrible thing to say. That "bucket of truth" you talk about can be used for good as she slips away, believing the kind stranger.

Well imagine she's reading this thread right now. Now, when it happens, she's not going to believe you even if her children are okay.

But what about you? Are you suggesting religious lies are moral if they give hope? So, how do you feel about all the people preaching about a heaven you don't believe in? If they have your full support shouldn't you stop criticising their message and cease pointing out its logical flaws for fear of crushing the last hope of a dying child?

This is probably the best defence of religion in general. Not everyone is like me and will break any scouter pointed at them if it's set to detect cynicism. Hope is important to people. I'm not going to lie to anyone unless my arm is twisted so far up my backside that I have no choice, but I probably shouldn't intentionally crush that hope, either.

When I'll lie is when, in the trope Nazi situation, Hitler expects it. If I tell the truth and the Nazi Party turns around and admonishes me (not for hiding the Jews in the first place, but for telling the truth) at that point I give up and just give society its bottle. Modern examples include that you can never say anything negative, even if it's true and someone asks the question.

Picture dedicated to boatsnguitars

Sister Act, with Whoopi Goldberg.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #40]

No, that was never a teaching in the church, as Jesus said, he has the greater sin. As James said some sin is unto death and some is not.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #40]

No, that was never a teaching in the church, as Jesus said, he has the greater sin. As James said some sin is unto death and some is not.

I don't know what your church teaches but biblically sin means "missing the mark" the image being of an arrow falling short of its target. One hits a target or one does not, in that it is absolute. So something is a sin or it is not a sin , in that "a sin is a sin"

That said, the scriptures show that God views mankind’s wrongdoing as varying in degrees of gravity, and as I said, God is merciful and God takes into account a person's circumstances when it comes to judgement (Gen 13:13; 18:20; compare 2Tim 3:6, 7 )

[boatsnguitars]

1 Kings 22:22
The Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’

1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the Lord has proclaimed disaster against you.”

2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

Jeremiah 4:10
Then I said, 'Oh, Lord GOD! Surely You have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘You will have peace’; yet a sword touches the throat.'

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #43]

That is clearly not the case, though. No one would believe that stealing a candy bar is the same as kidnapping a child.

John 19:11 "Jesus answered, 'You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore, the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.'"

1 John 5:16-17 "If anyone sees his brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, they should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that they should pray about that."


Luke 12:47-48: "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #43]

That is clearly not the case, though. No one would believe that stealing a candy bar is the same as kidnapping a child.

Did I not say that not all sins are of the same degree of gravity?

...the scriptures show that God views mankind’s wrongdoing as varying in degrees of gravity, and as I said, God is merciful and God takes into account a person's circumstances when it comes to judgement (Gen 13:13; 18:20; compare 2Tim 3:6, 7 )

[Miles]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #40]

No, that was never a teaching in the church, as Jesus said, he has the greater sin. As James said some sin is unto death and some is not.

I don't know what your church teaches but biblically sin means "missing the mark" the image being of an arrow falling short of its target. One hits a target or one does not, in that it is absolute. So something is a sin or it is not a sin , in that "a sin is a sin"

That said, the scriptures show that God views mankind’s wrongdoing as varying in degrees of gravity, and as I said, God is merciful and God takes into account a person's circumstances when it comes to judgement (Gen 13:13; 18:20; compare 2Tim 3:6, 7 )

Makes one wonder about the lies god told or instigated.

Jeremiah 4:10
Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.

[de·ceive
verb: deceive; 3rd person present:
(of a person) cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage.]

lied; lying ˈlī-iŋ
intransitive verb
1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2: to create a false or misleading impression

Jeremiah 20:7
O Lord, You have lied to me and I was fooled. You are stronger than I, and have had power over me. I have been laughed at all day. Everyone makes fun of me.

Ezekiel 14:9
If a prophet gives a false message, I am the one who caused that prophet to lie. But I will still reject him and cut him off from my people,

2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

AND, the lies god instigated by proxy; inducing prophets or spirits to lie.

2 Chronicles 18:22
20 Then a spirit went and stood before the Lord. He said, ‘I will fool him!’ The Lord asked, ‘How will you do it?’ 21 He answered, ‘I will go out and become a spirit of lies in the mouths of Ahab’s prophets—they will all speak lies.’ So the Lord said, ‘Yes, that will fool Ahab. Go out and do that!’
22 “So that is what has happened here. The Lord made your prophets lie to you. The Lord himself decided to bring this disaster to you.”

.

[iam1me2023]

Question for debate: Is lying inherently wrong? If so, why?

Christians believe God is perfect and that God doesn't lie. Is this simply a choice, is it necessary for us lesser beings to be able to trust, is it itself a deception, or is it an inherent part of perfection that a being should not lie?

Is it possible that lying is wrong for us, but not God, or vice-versa?

Is it uniquely or especially wrong to lie to a child? Or perhaps uniquely or especially permissible?

No, lying is not inherently wrong. The OT Law prohibits particularly damaging instances of lying like providing false testimony against someone else (like in a court of law) and false prophets. There are also passages in scripture that speak more generally against lying - and instead teaches you to be trustworthy.

Basically, if lies bring (unjustified) harm - and especially if the lie is done with malicious intent - then its a sin.

On the other hand, God blessed the midwives in Egypt who lied to Pharaoh after refusing to carry out his orders to kill the new born sons of Israel. Was it wrong for them to lie to protect themselves and others from a cruel ruler seeking to do them harm? I think not. Also, there are instances throughout scripture where God has led people to be fooled and believe lies.

As with pretty much any action, you can find cases where it is not only permissible but even preferable to lie than to tell the truth. An morally acceptable lie must have good intent - considering all relevant parties - and not bring unjustified harm to others.

[JehovahsWitness]

DID GOD LIE TO JEREMIAH?

JEREMIAH 20:7 - NWT

You have fooled [Heb. PATHAH ] me, O Jehovah, and I was fooled. You used your strength against me, and you prevailed ...

Various other translations : https://biblehub.com/jeremiah/20-7.htm

The Hebrew word translated into the English "fooled" by the NWT translation and rendered "deceived" by most others does not impose lying. It literally means to "widen out" /make specious and can, according to context mean "persuade" or seduce.
Word Study: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... v/wlc/0-1/


Does the Hebrew impose saying untruths?

No. Jeremiah himself explained how he was "fooled" / "decieved" explaining that Gods strength proved stronger than the Prophet's weakness. From the outset of his career as a Prophet , Jeremiah had been told by Jehovah (God) that divine power would act in this way. If God allowed Jeremiah to harbour for a while his human expectations, only to turn things around at the last minuite, at no point did God lie to Jeremiah.

Are not all deceptions malicious ?

No. All surprise parties entail allowing someone to believe something that will finally be revealed to be false; without actually lying it may be that someone permits the individual to harbour expectations fully intending to produce a gift or a blessing. When Jesus told Lazarus sisters to show him the grave of their brothers four days dead, he knew they expected it was with a view to expressing his own grief. He turned their false expectation into a blessing, without lies and with no malicious intent.

CONCLUSION The deception was entirely in the prophets mind. If God allowed such a human misconception it was without malicious intent or lies and with an aim to showing the Prophet the blessing of divine power.

[JehovahsWitness]

DID GOD LIE TO HIS PEOPLE?

JEREMIAH 4:10

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived [Heb.NASHA ] this people

Various other translations : https://biblehub.com/jeremiah/4-10.htm

God is not here recorded as lying. That said He evidently allowed false Prophets to promulgate their lying message. In that sense , since he could have stopped them but did not, he "decieved" /"fooled" them allowing them to follow false Prophets that "ticked their ears".

EZEKIEL 14:9 NWT

“‘But if the prophet is fooled and gives a response, it is I, Jehovah, who have fooled that prophet. I will then stretch out my hand against him and annihilate him from my people Israel

Various other translations: https://biblehub.com/ezekiel/14-9.htm

The Mosaic Law had already indicated that this would be the case, as outlined how the people would be able to judge between a false and a true Prophets, namely if their message came true. Evidently then God was acting in line with his stated written word in allowing false Prophets to operate along with the True Prophets like Jeremiah, in order for their true motives to be revealed.