Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[1213]

...You must disbelieve the Quran in saying don't believe Jesus was divine, son of God (in actuality, not metaphor) or that he dies on the cross and was resurrected. Quran denies the Christian claims about Jesus. But because it says Jesus was a prophet, you take that as some kind of confirmation of Christian beliefs about Jesus....

Ok, so now it seems you say Quran is a contradictory book? Is that a good reason to reject it?

But, I would like to see those parts from the Quran, what it actually says.

[TRANSPONDER]

...You must disbelieve the Quran in saying don't believe Jesus was divine, son of God (in actuality, not metaphor) or that he dies on the cross and was resurrected. Quran denies the Christian claims about Jesus. But because it says Jesus was a prophet, you take that as some kind of confirmation of Christian beliefs about Jesus....

Ok, so now it seems you say Quran is a contradictory book? Is that a good reason to reject it?

But, I would like to see those parts from the Quran, what it actually says.

Will you stop misquoting and misreporting me? As i recall this infringes the rules.

However, I do sat that the Quran disagrees with the NT about the nature of Jesus. The factuality of the sonship of God and the resurrection from death. I also think it makes some factual mistakes that discredits it, but that's another matter.


(Wiki) Depending on the interpretation of the following Quranic verses (Quran 4:157-4:158), Islamic scholars and commentators of the Quran have abstracted different opinions and conflicting conclusions regarding the death of Jesus.[3][4][6][9]: 430-431  Some believe that in the Biblical account, Jesus' crucifixion did not last long enough for him to die, while others opine that God gave Jesus' appearance to the one who revealed his location to those persecuting him. He was replaced as Jesus and the executioners thought the victim was Jesus, causing everyone to believe that Jesus was crucified. A third explanation could be that Jesus was nailed to a cross, but as his soul is immortal he did not "die" or was not "crucified" [to death]; it only appeared so. In opposition to the second and third foregoing proposals, yet others maintain that God does not use deceit and therefore they contend that the crucifixion just did not happen:[12]

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

- Quran 4:157-158[12]

Now, I could select a lot of Quran quotes but they don't altogether convey the rejection of Jesus as actually son of God.
Wiki covers it pretty well. I can collate a few quotes if you want but this covers the idea that Jesus was a man, a prophet, not divine, not actually the Son of God.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Islam, Isa refers to Jesus. For other uses, see Isa (disambiguation) and Isa (name).
Prophet
In Islam, Jesus (Arabic: , romanized: s ibn Maryam, lit. 'Isa, son of Maryam') is believed to be the penultimate prophet and messenger of God and the Messiah sent to guide the Children of Israel (Ban Isra'l) with a book called the Injl.

In the Quran, Jesus is described as the Messiah (al-Mas), miraculously born of a virgin, performing miracles, accompanied by his disciples, rejected by the Jewish religious establishment, but not as crucified or dying on the cross (nor resurrected), rather as miraculously saved by God and ascending into heaven.

The Quran places Jesus among the greatest prophets, and mentions him with various titles. The prophethood of Jesus is preceded by that of Yahya and succeeded by Muhammad, the latter of whom Jesus is reported to have prophesied by using the name Ahmad.

There is a variety of variable interpretations in Islam about Jesus Christ. Mainstream interpretations of the Quran lack the Orthodox Christian philosophy theological concepts of Christology regarding divine hypostasis, so to many it appears the Quran rejects Christ because in the Christian view of the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus Christ as God incarnate being a man, or as the literal Son of God in human flesh, as it apparently denies the doctrine of the divine humanity of Jesus as God in several verses, and also insinuates that Jesus Christ did not claim to be personally God (God the Father). Muslims believe that Jesus' original message was altered (tarf), after his being raised alive. The monotheism (tawd) of Jesus is emphasized in the Quran. Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is also called a Muslim, as he preached that his followers should adopt the 'straight path' (ir al-Mustaqm). Jesus is attributed with a vast number of miracles in Islamic tradition.

We have drifted a bit (1). The point is that the Quran does NOT validate belief in Jesus according to Christian doctrine but, while is covers the Christian claim according to Their beliefs, it doe NOT confirm them. As I recall, this also goes back to a discussion on why one should believe Christianity/Bible over any other religion of Holy Book.

That of course depends on whether the Bible is considered reliable, which is what the debates here are mostly about.

(1) discussion drift. happens because theist apologists challenge everything. Everything has to be validated and the validation itself is challenged. It sometimes requires a bit of work to get back to what the discussion was about.

[POI]

Here we are at post 493 and still no clear answer. I'll simply repeat the OP debate questions:

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? The theists that have decided to respond, either give conflicting answers, or no answer. Why is the Bible so unclear with something so important?

[1213]

...That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Interestingly that is not necessary wrong. It is possible that those who boasted did not actually do it, that does not mean someone else could not have done that. For me important point is that it is said that Allah raised Jesus up, as it is also said in the Bible. So, I don't think here is really any big difference.

... this covers the idea that Jesus was a man, a prophet, not divine, not actually the Son of God...

I think that agrees with Bible, depending on what means "Son of God".

For God is one, also there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim. 2:5

...Quran rejects Christ because in the Christian view of the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus Christ as God incarnate being a man, or as the literal Son of God in human flesh, as it apparently denies the doctrine of the divine humanity of Jesus as God in several verses, and also insinuates that Jesus Christ did not claim to be personally God (God the Father). Muslims believe that Jesus' original message was altered (tarf), after his being raised alive. The monotheism (tawd) of Jesus is emphasized in the Quran. Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is also called a Muslim, as he preached that his followers should adopt the 'straight path' (ir al-Mustaqm). Jesus is attributed with a vast number of miracles in Islamic tradition.[/i]

We have drifted a bit (1). The point is that the Quran does NOT validate belief in Jesus according to Christian doctrine...

It can be true that "Christian doctrine" is not validated, but that is not the same as the Bible. By what I see, there is no meaningful contradiction between Bible and Quran about Jesus. Bible doesn't say Jesus is God incarnate, nor is Jesus the one and only true God himself, by what is said in the Bible.

And I think it is also true that the original message has been altered, but, it is still right in the Bible.

[1213]

Here we are at post 493 and still no clear answer. I'll simply repeat the OP debate questions:

For debate: How does one get to Heaven?

Bible tells eternal life is a gift for those who are righteous.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Why is that not clear to you?

[TRANSPONDER]

...That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Interestingly that is not necessary wrong. It is possible that those who boasted did not actually do it, that does not mean someone else could not have done that. For me important point is that it is said that Allah raised Jesus up, as it is also said in the Bible. So, I don't think here is really any big difference.

... this covers the idea that Jesus was a man, a prophet, not divine, not actually the Son of God...

I think that agrees with Bible, depending on what means "Son of God".

For God is one, also there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim. 2:5

...Quran rejects Christ because in the Christian view of the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus Christ as God incarnate being a man, or as the literal Son of God in human flesh, as it apparently denies the doctrine of the divine humanity of Jesus as God in several verses, and also insinuates that Jesus Christ did not claim to be personally God (God the Father). Muslims believe that Jesus' original message was altered (tarf), after his being raised alive. The monotheism (tawd) of Jesus is emphasized in the Quran. Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is also called a Muslim, as he preached that his followers should adopt the 'straight path' (ir al-Mustaqm). Jesus is attributed with a vast number of miracles in Islamic tradition.[/i]

We have drifted a bit (1). The point is that the Quran does NOT validate belief in Jesus according to Christian doctrine...

It can be true that "Christian doctrine" is not validated, but that is not the same as the Bible. By what I see, there is no meaningful contradiction between Bible and Quran about Jesus. Bible doesn't say Jesus is God incarnate, nor is Jesus the one and only true God himself, by what is said in the Bible.

And I think it is also true that the original message has been altered, but, it is still right in the Bible.

If the title 'Son of God' mean a human,then we are all sons of God. One might even argue about what the Bible claims - Jesus might have been made, not begotten. But the Christian Dogma is that somehow Jesus was the begotten son of God and the Muslim religion, following the Quran says not. The end is that Islam and the Quran do NOT validate what Christianity claims about Jesus - neither resurrection from death nor the idea of Jesus being a literal
(begotten) son of God.

I do not care 'what you see'. I do not care what I see. I see the Bible as saying that Jesus was a human (and the divine from conception stories are demonstrably false) and the 'Spirit' did not inhabit Jesus until the baptism. The point is that Mainstream Christianity has as Dogma that not only was Jesus God incarnated and present in the human body but had been so from conception. And the Quran and Islam denies it.

If you deny it too, well and good.So do I. But you have then invented your own Christianity. I haven't.

[POI]

Here we are at post 493 and still no clear answer. I'll simply repeat the OP debate questions:

For debate: How does one get to Heaven?

Bible tells eternal life is a gift for those who are righteous.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Why is that not clear to you?

I've told you repeatedly. Hence, it is not clear for you. Righteousness means faithfulness, according to Romans 3 and 4. Further, no other Christian, who answered, gave the same answer as you. The Bible is not clear, because the Bible gives more than one answer here. It's not you, it's not me, it's the Bible. The book you use for guidance is not clear on this topic.

[1213]

...Righteousness means faithfulness, according to Romans 3 and 4...

I think that is not accurately said, but, if we assume that is correct and righteousness = faithfulness, what is your problem? What is still unclear for you?

It seems to me that the reason why things are unclear to you is that you refuse to accept what Bible actually says and replace it with your our interpretation. That is why my advice to you is, stop making unclear interpretations, life becomes much easier.

....The Bible is not clear, because the Bible gives more than one answer here....

I think it gives only one answer. Eternal life is for righteous. And if person is righteous, it will show in persons actions.

[1213]

If the title 'Son of God' mean a human,then we are all sons of God.

In Bible children of God are defined like this:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed: that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him, and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

...Jesus was the begotten son of God and the Muslim religion, following the Quran says not. ..

If that is true, then Quran is contradictory and I reject it because of that. Can't take seriously a book that tells, believe Jesus and at the same time says, no, don't actually believe Jesus.

If you deny it too, well and good.So do I. But you have then invented your own Christianity. I haven't.

I think I just remain in what is said in the Bible.

[POI]

...Righteousness means faithfulness, according to Romans 3 and 4...

I think that is not accurately said, but, if we assume that is correct and righteousness = faithfulness, what is your problem? What is still unclear for you?

It seems to me that the reason why things are unclear to you is that you refuse to accept what Bible actually says and replace it with your our interpretation. That is why my advice to you is, stop making unclear interpretations, life becomes much easier.

....The Bible is not clear, because the Bible gives more than one answer here....

I think it gives only one answer. Eternal life is for righteous. And if person is righteous, it will show in persons actions.

No. It is unclear for you too. If 'righteousness' equals 'faith', then the answer is B), not F). But either way, most others think the answer is D) anyways. You are in direct conflict with many others, who also claim to know the Bible every bit as much as you and also believe in it as much as you. This is the entire point of this thread. The Bible is not clear. The proof is in the pudding. None of you agree. The God you worship is the purveyor of confusion.