Happy Anniversary?

[myth-one.com]

Today, June 20th 2009, is the eighth anniversary of the sacrifice Andrea Yates made for her children. Had she not murdered them, Noah would be 15 years old, John would be 13, Paul 11, Luke 10, and Mary would be 8. Instead, they were murdered by their mother so they would go immediately to live with God eternally in the paradise of heaven, thus avoiding the possibility of eternal torment in hellfire.

Is this a victory for Christianity?

[Clownboat]

As for your personal comments about me and my family, what "I have allowed myself to accept" (and the process that may or may not have lead to it) of "what appeals" or is attractive to me, or even what I have "ignored" as opposed to interpreted differenly from others and why all that you assume knowledge of my mind, education and feelings, which you can't possibly have. If you would like to present evidence of you mind reading capacity I'm more than willing see it; otherwise I will ignore the personal comments you made as being overly presumptious and somewhat discourteous.

I'm curious, but have you allowed yourself to accept that ancient Hebrew was the first language used by man and that all the other languages were created at a Tower of Babel? Do you ignore information to the contrary like the Witness I worked with for many years did?

Have you allowed yourself to accept that Jesus has returned since 1914?
Have you allowed yourself to accept that Jesus was actually the angel Michael?
Have you allowed yourself to accept that there are only 144,000 'true Christians'?
Have you allowed yourself to accept that blood is a sacred gift from God and its sole purpose after being removed from a creature is to amend sins?
Have you allowed yourself to accept that other churches and governments are tools of Satan?
Have you allowed yourself to accept that celebrating holidays is a no no? How about allowing your kids to play organized sports with other non Jehovah's Witness kids?

Do you ignore that fact that having an institution dictate who you can hang out with, play sports with, associate with, all with the threat of excommunication is typical cult behavior?

If these things don't appeal or seem attractive to you, then why would you believe any of them and how did you come to accept them if you did not allow yourself to accept them?

Why you ask for evidence that he has knowledge of your mind is lost on me. A person can be aware of Witness beliefs without actually knowing a specific Witnesses mind.
Perhaps you will clarify for us and show that you don't believe these things and that he was being overly presumptuous and somewhat discourteous?

[1213]

That theology being questioned is:

a -- Humans are born with an immortal soul which will live eternally in Heaven or hell.

b -- Children and others who do not know right from wrong get the free pass to Heaven. Thus being saved from eternal torture.

Is this what the vast number of Christians believe?

Ok, in that case I would say, according to the Bible, eternal life is for righteous. So person must be righteous to get eternal life. I dont know how person who doesnt understand right and wrong could be righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20

But it is possible that most Christians dont believe what the Bible tells.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 51 by Clownboat]

All very interesting questions of course. However I do believe the subject of this thread is the effect of the theology of hellfire on mental health and I will not be derailling it by answering any of them.

My understanding is there are subforums here where you can seek further information about the beliefs of a particular faith (religion) and even one to address questions to a particular poster, if you post in one of those I'm confident someone, some day will be interested enough in speaking to you, to answer them.

Hope everything works out for you in that regard,

JW



What Do Jehovahs Witnesses Believe?
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... s-beliefs/

[Tired of the Nonsense]

That theology being questioned is:

a -- Humans are born with an immortal soul which will live eternally in Heaven or hell.

b -- Children and others who do not know right from wrong get the free pass to Heaven. Thus being saved from eternal torture.

Is this what the vast number of Christians believe?

Ok, in that case I would say, according to the Bible, eternal life is for righteous. So person must be righteous to get eternal life. I dont know how person who doesnt understand right and wrong could be righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20

But it is possible that most Christians dont believe what the Bible tells.

Virtually NO ONE genuinely believes in everything that the Bible says. And this is proven in their actions.

Exodus 35:
[2] Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Have you ever worked on the Sabbath, or seen anyone else work on the Sabbath? Are they still living?

Lev.11
[7] And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
[8] Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

Have you ever eaten pork, or knowingly owned any products made of pig skin?

lev 19:
[19] Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

Have you ever mixed cotton and wool? What were you thinking?

Exodus 22:
[18] Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

How many witches have you killed in total?

The truth is, there are portions of the Bible that no one but the most psychotic individual would ever attempt to keep, or even pay any attention too. Because they are the silly laws conceived of by ancient people who were steeped in their own superstitious foolishness and have no relevance to us today.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 51 by Clownboat]

All very interesting questions of course. However I do believe the subject of this thread is the effect of the theology of hellfire on mental health and I will not be derailling it by answering any of them.

My understanding is there are subforums here where you can seek further information about the beliefs of a particular faith (religion) and even one to address questions to a particular poster, if you post in one of those I'm confident someone, some day will be interested enough in them to answer you.

Best Regards,

JW

And I don't believe that anyone needs to be a mind reader to know those things like you were trying to claim.
There is no need for you to provide answers to those questions.
"Do I know what a rhetorical question is"?

[1213]

Exodus 22:
[18] Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

How many witches have you killed in total?

The truth is, there are portions of the Bible that no one but the most psychotic individual would ever attempt to keep, or even pay any attention too. Because they are the silly laws conceived of by ancient people who were steeped in their own superstitious foolishness and have no relevance to us today.

It would be good to understand that keeping and believing is not necessary the same thing.

Also, it is not reasonable to take some sentence out of context and then obey it without understanding the whole Bible. For example about killing witch is not that simple as that single line. There are rules and not everyone is set to be judge by God. But it is good, if you dont believe, because probably you would run to make things that you are not really allowed to do, by way that is not allowed in the Bible.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Exodus 22:
[18] Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

How many witches have you killed in total?

The truth is, there are portions of the Bible that no one but the most psychotic individual would ever attempt to keep, or even pay any attention too. Because they are the silly laws conceived of by ancient people who were steeped in their own superstitious foolishness and have no relevance to us today.

It would be good to understand that keeping and believing is not necessary the same thing.

Also, it is not reasonable to take some sentence out of context and then obey it without understanding the whole Bible. For example about killing witch is not that simple as that single line. There are rules and not everyone is set to be judge by God. But it is good, if you dont believe, because probably you would run to make things that you are not really allowed to do, by way that is not allowed in the Bible.

Wikipedia
Witch trials in the early modern period
The period of witch trials in Early Modern Europe[1] were a widespread moral panic suggesting that malevolent Satanic witches were operating as an organized threat to Christendom during the 15th to 18th centuries.[2] Those accused of witchcraft were portrayed as being worshippers of the Devil, who engaged in such acts as malevolent sorcery at meetings known as Witches' Sabbaths. Many people were subsequently accused of being witches, and were put on trial for the crime, with varying punishments being applicable in different regions and at different times.

While early trials fall still within the Late Medieval period, the peak of the witch hunt was during the period of the European wars of religion, peaking between about 1580 and 1630. The witch hunts declined in the early 18th century. In Great Britain, their end is marked by the Witchcraft Act of 1735. But sporadic witch-trials continued to be held during the second half of the 18th century, the last known dating to 1782, though a prosecution was commenced in Tennessee as recently as 1833.

Over the entire duration of the phenomenon of some three centuries, an estimated total of between 40,000 and 60,000 people were executed. Among the best known of these trials were the Scottish North Berwick witch trials, Swedish Torsker witch trials and the American Salem witch trials. Among the largest and most notable were the Trier witch trials (1581"1593), the Fulda witch trials (1603"1606), the Wrzburg witch trial (1626"1631) and the Bamberg witch trials (1626"1631).

The sociological causes of the witch-hunts have long been debated in scholarship. Mainstream historiography sees the reason for the witch craze in a complex interplay of various factors that mark the early modern period, including the religious sectarianism in the wake of the Reformation, besides other religious, societal, economic and climatic factors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_tri ... ern_period



Some estimates place the total number of witch executions in Europe as high as 100,000. Whole areas of France and Germany were almost completely denuded of women. So you are suggesting that thousands of women and young girls were executed by Christian authorities because the authorities "misunderstood" and took what Exodus 22:18 specifically says:"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," "out of context?" Do you suppose that was of any consolation to the thousands of women and girls who were hung, burned at the stake, and cruelly tortured to death? In fact I would suggest that these actions are precisely the inevitable result of what one should reasonably expect to be the consequence of subscribing with unquestioned devotion to ancient superstition and religious make believe, by doing exactly what your book of ancient superstition and religious make believe commands you to do.

[myth-one.com]

Thank you. I was not of course implying that Jehovah's Witnesses are unaffected by the tragedy of such events my point was purely theological, I did not want to appear callous or imply that such events don't sadden us.

I did not consider you callous in any way!

It does not "concern" Jehovah's Witnesses in that they do not teach that theology.

But you are concerned because any individual's death affects all of us -- each of us being a part of mankind.

I hope you continue to be outspoken when the opportunity to speak against the immortal soul myth arises again-- as it did in this forum.

I try to bring it up on the anniversary (June 20) every year.

I still stand by my earlier post that I have yet to see any medical expert point to a causative link between belief in hellfire and baby killers. Just because I don't believe in hellfire I don't feel the need to create hystical claims that it causes diviant behaviour and I have read this thread carefully waiting for credible evidence from mental health experts that claim that is the case.

Andrea Yates told psychiatrist Philip Resnick she was failing as a mother and believed she had to kill the children to keep them from going to hell. "These were their innocent years. God would take them up." Mrs. Yates became frustrated by what she felt was a lack of development by the children. If she did not take action, the children would be destined for eternal damnation. "They did a lot of silly stuff and didn't obey. They did things God didn't like."

But Mrs. Yates' explanation was not excepted as the cause. These murders (and most other similar murders) have been attributed to mental illness.

And this has to be the cause -- as no one can accept that any "sane" person could commit such an act! Thus she is insane.

Mrs. Yates has been diagnosed throughout this tragic event as having postpartum depression, schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, and bipolar disorder.

Is there a link between mental illness and the belief in eternal hellfire punishment?

If so, then which of her four diagnosed mental disorders planted this idea of in her head?

Did postpartum depression create her belief that the souls of innocent children go immediately to God upon their death? No!

Did schizophrenia generate this belief in her mind? No!

What about the schizoaffective disorder? No!

Then it must have been the bipolar disorder?

Once again, absolutely not!

We know the source of her belief in eternal hellfire punishment -- and it was not caused by any mental illness. She was taught that in a Christian church.

It is more likely that the link is in the other direction. That is, anxiety and fear caused by her religious beliefs contributed to her mental illness.

Once again, from Newsweek Magazine a few weeks after the murders, "About 200 children are killed by their mothers every year, according to Justice statistics. Sometimes moms blame the devil. Or they think they are saving their children from a hellish life by sending them to heaven."

In actuality, mentally ill Christian mothers who murder their innocent children do not think they are saving them from a hellish life by sending them to heaven. They know they may be saving their children from burning eternally in hell by sending them to heaven. They learned this fact from their religion, and certainly great men of God would not lie to them!

I wonder if atheist psychotics murder their children at a rate significantly lower than psychotics who believe in the eternal torture in hellfire myth.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 58 by myth-one.com]

I still stand by my earlier post that I have yet to see any medical expert point to a causative link between belief in hellfire and baby killers. Just because I don't believe in hellfire I don't feel the need to create hystical claims that it causes diviant behaviour and I have read this thread carefully waiting for credible evidence from mental health experts that claim that is the case.

You do understand what a "causative link" is right? And you do understand that you and nobody in this thread qualifies as a mental health expert.

Just because certain elements are present this does not establish Cause. Women wear dresses. Women have periods. Therefore Dresses cause periods.

Opinion and peer reviewed medical evidence are not the same thing (see your post above)

A link to peer reviewed medical experts that establish that religious belief causes deviant behaviour would be appreciated.


JW

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 58 by myth-one.com]

I still stand by my earlier post that I have yet to see any medical expert point to a causative link between belief in hellfire and baby killers. Just because I don't believe in hellfire I don't feel the need to create hystical claims that it causes diviant behaviour and I have read this thread carefully waiting for credible evidence from mental health experts that claim that is the case.

You do understand what a "causative link" is right? And you do understand that you and nobody in this thread qualifies as a mental health expert.

Just because certain elements are present this does not establish Cause. Women wear dresses. Women have periods. Therefore Dresses cause periods.

Opinion and peer reviewed medical evidence are not the same thing (see your post above)

A link to peer reviewed medical experts that establish that religious belief causes deviant behaviour would be appreciated.


JW

I posted this link in post #36 of this string last Tuesday. You simply did not bother to read it.



Religion, spirituality and psychotic disorders
Harold G. Koenig

Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences. Associate Professor of Medicine. Duke University Medical Center. Geriatric Research, Education and Clinic Center. Durham VA Medical Center

Religious delusions

In the United States, a number of studies have examined religious delusions in patients with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. The first of these reported results of a small study of 41 psychotic patients in New York City, finding that 39% of those with schizophrenia and 22% of those with mania had religious delusions (Cothran & Harvey, 1986). In a much larger study of 1,136 psychiatric inpatients in the mid-western and eastern United States, 25% of patients with schizophrenia and 15% of those with bipolar disorder had religious delusions (Appelbaum et al., 1999). Compared to other delusions, religious delusions appeared to be held with greater conviction than other delusions. Finally, Getz and colleagues (2001) compared the frequency of religious delusions across religious denomination in 133 inpatients (74% schizophrenia) at the University of Cincinnati Medical Center. Religious delusions were documented in 24% of 33 non-religious patients, 43% of 71 Protestant patients, and 21% of 29 Catholic patients.

In Europe and Great Britain, one study of 251 inpatients with schizophrenia in Austria and Germany reported a prevalence rate of 21% for religious delusions (Tateyama et al., 1998). One of the most detailed studies to date from Great Britain found that 24% of 193 patients with schizophrenia had religious delusions (Siddle et al., 2002a). Patients with religious delusions had more severe hallucinations and bizarre delusions, had poorer functioning, a longer duration of illness, and were taking more anti-psychotic medication than other patients. Thus, in studies of patients with schizophrenia, religious delusions are present in 7-11% of Japanese patients, 21-24% of Western European patients, and 21-43% of patients in the United States.



FINDINGS: While about one-third of psychoses have religious delusions, not all religious experiences are psychotic. In fact, they may even have positive effects on the course of severe mental illness, forcing clinicians to make a decision on whether to treat religious beliefs and discourage religious experiences, or to support them.


The entire article can be found at:
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S01 ... xt&tlng=en

The author found that not all religious people display psychotic behavior.