The Central Problem with Christianity

[Diogenes]

Jesus (and Paul) thought the world was going to end soon. This is why Jesus told people to give away their possessions, and Paul taught people should not marry. Jesus spoke very specifically about the world ending in the lifetime of those he preached to. [I won't go into the verses, because it will spawn the usual verbal gymnastics about how he did not mean what he said]

Christians, for the most part, ignore the idea of not attaining wealth. They also ignore the admonition not to marry. They ignore these basic Christian teachings because they don't like them. Instead, they claim Jesus didn't really mean what he said about the end coming soon. This provides cover for getting married and accumulating wealth.

The question for debate is, "Why do most Christians marry and try to accumulate wealth despite the very clear New Testament admonitions to do the opposite?

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.

__ Matthew 6:19-20

[TRANSPONDER]

I don't think I am wealthy

What would be Jesus's definition of 'wealth'? And how do you know?

I think it would be fair to say Jesus would deem you as wealthy. Do you own electronic devices? Yes. Do you possess any wants? I'm sure you do. Do you have a bank account? Likely so. Is Jesus okay with your current classification? I doubt it.

Any time you are paying attention to <material wealth>, you are taking your focus off of 'God'. The more wealth you own, the more times you are distracted by this material wealth.

You being a Christian, I find it peculiar, as I'm sure 'Diogenes' does as well, that you have not given away most of your <material wealth> to instead fully focus your energy on Jesus/God?

material things just should not be more important than God for example.

Any time you focus any of your efforts on any of these material items, you are not placing your sole efforts on 'God'. Hence, the less of this <material wealth> you have, the less of a chance you will place any of this energy on such <material wealth>. As a Christian, why not be safe, and give most/all of this <material wealth> away?

Wealth can be a byproduct of doing good things, without intention to get wealth.

Sure. But as a Christian, seems it would be wise to then get rid of this newly obtained <material wealth>, as to not remove the sole focus off of God -- not even for a second.

But, I think some "Christians" may be greedy and follow money rather than God. I think it is sad and I think it is good if you remind them of what Jesus said.

Any time you interact, engage, or think about any type or form or <material wealth>, you are then not placing your sole focus on 'God'. As a Christian, it might be wise to get rid of all of it; as it can only distract you. What do you say?

That, not 'I don't care about your opinion' is the reasonable response. Who is rich and who is poor? Obviously the richer you are that harder it is to get into the Kingdom of Heave, according to the Bible. And note, it isn't just 'give your surplus to the needy so you are no better off than they are'. Jesus proposes that everything is given to the poor and the person follows Jesus. The only argument I can see is that the Rich Man has to do more than the usual comfortably off, because he has to make amends for being wealthy (1) because if he gives all his money away to the poor they become the rich and he becomes the poor and they have to giver it back.

(1) fortunately the Prosperity Covenant hath made all things New so that the Rich have worked by the sweat of their brow for their pelf and God wants them to be even richer, while the Poor deserve nothing but contempt for being useless and lazy; and from them, even the little that they hath should be taken away.

[JehovahsWitness]

You decline to refute the case I put forward, other than to twist the point.

How is stating a verifiable FACT "twisting the point"?

Jesus at no time is recorded as telling /instructing/commanding anyone but the rich young ruler to give away their belongings. Make of that what you wish but to say stating a fact somehow distorts your point suggest your point is rather weak, failing to accomodate all the relevant information. Instead of lamenting the fact that the wider context seems to undermine your point, would it not be better to attempt to make a stronger case by address it?





JW

[1213]

...
Let me give you an example of a Christian edit....or maybe two.
The very first verse of the first chapter of the Gospel of Mark was changed after the earliest copies that we have.
NIV Bible: Mark : 1 1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[1] the Son of God,

The inclusion of [1] just before 'the Son of God' tells the reader that this was not present in earliest copies.
...

Ok, thank you. I think it is possible that the idea has been in the original source. But, even if not, I don't think it really makes much difference, when the matter comes quite clear from other parts of the scriptures.

[1213]

...
You being a Christian, I find it peculiar, as I'm sure 'Diogenes' does as well, that you have not given away most of your <material wealth> to instead fully focus your energy on Jesus/God?

So, you think giving about 50 % way and using the rest for food and place to live is not good enough? Ok, I am not that strict, I don't think the idea is to reject all and die.

Any time you interact, engage, or think about any type or form or <material wealth>, you are then not placing your sole focus on 'God'. As a Christian, it might be wise to get rid of all of it; as it can only distract you. What do you say?

I think I go what Jesus said.

[JehovahsWitness]

Or indeed it is good not to molest stray passing ladies but it is better not to want to do it, as Matthew says...

Molestation is a bad act. I do believe this point has been addressed.

The contrast [in scripture], however was not between good and bad but between good and better.

1 CORINTHIANS 7:38 NWT
whoever marries does well, but whoever does not marry will do better.

[oldbadger]

Ok, thank you. I think it is possible that the idea has been in the original source. But, even if not, I don't think it really makes much difference, when the matter comes quite clear from other parts of the scriptures.

These things are clear in different ways to us all.
Jesus often referred to himself as 'Son of man' but then, every Jew was a son to their God, their 'Father', and they his children.
To me, Jesus was a man, a working man, who stood up against leadership greed, corruption, hypocrisy....the whole mess.

I guess it's another thread, but I don't think he died on the cross, either.

[POI]

There looks to be at least a couple of key components you have skipped.

Do you acknowledge there exists a large disparity between (having anything at all) VS (wealth)? Assuming the your answer is yes, let us proceed...

What does Jesus classify as wealth?

Now to your response below...

...
You being a Christian, I find it peculiar, as I'm sure 'Diogenes' does as well, that you have not given away most of your <material wealth> to instead fully focus your energy on Jesus/God?

So, you think giving about 50 % way and using the rest for food and place to live is not good enough? Ok, I am not that strict, I don't think the idea is to reject all and die.

You did not address my prior questions. Since you have not, allow me to preemptively answer them for you...

Do you own electronic devices? YES
Do you possess any wants, which are not absolutely necessary for survival? YES
Do you possess a bank account; with any type of savings? YES

Assuming you do not dispute any of these (3) answered questions above, allow us to proceed.

Owning electronic devices, possessing any items of want vs need for survival, and procuring any type of savings, are all distractions from numero uno. Your best bet is to give them away, as you cannot worship (2) 'gods' ---- "No servant can serve two masters". Meaning, if you ever place your focus upon possessions, whether it be electronics, procured savings, keepsakes, etc., they all distract from 'god'.

This leads us back to Diogenes's OP. The central problem here, is that you, as a Christian, look to be in direct defiance of Jesus's teachings. To continue on your current path, you need to ignore what He tells his proclaimed devoted listeners.

Any time you interact, engage, or think about any type or form or <material wealth>, you are then not placing your sole focus on 'God'. As a Christian, it might be wise to get rid of all of it; as it can only distract you. What do you say?

I think I go what Jesus said.

It does not matter what you think. As a Christian, it only matters what Jesus thinks. Why take the risk? Why not give away all your electronics, any of your wants/possessions, and close out your bank account(s) and give all of it to the poor?

[JehovahsWitness]

What does Jesus classify as wealth?

It hardly matters since Jesus rarely if ever, spoke about wealth (riches) other than in terms of one's attitude towards material possessions, and the focus one might have in acquiring and retaining them. Classifying "wealth" itself (what one considers wealthy) is relative, which is why no doubt, Jesus discourse did not focus on which or how many possessions his disciples should or should not have, in favor of the correct attitude they should have towards material possessions.

There is no record of Jesus ever commanding his disciples to give away all their material possessions.

MATTHEW 16:9 - Berean Study Bible

I tell you, use worldly wealth to make friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, they will welcome you into eternal dwellings.

[POI]

There is no record of Jesus ever commanding his disciples to give away all their material possessions.

This statement is false:

Matt. 19:21 "Jesus told him, "If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

[JehovahsWitness]

There isno record of Jesus ever commanding his disciples to give away all their material possessions.

This statement is false:

Matt. 19:21 "Jesus told him, "If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

No, it is entirely accurate. I said his "disciples' (plural ) not someone that refused to become a disciple when invited.

Any questions?
JW