The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

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The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #1

Post by boatsnguitars »

Christian clergy and apologists claim that "All the Apostles died instead of recanting their belief in the Resurrection."

Josh McDowell ("More Than A Carpenter, Evidence Demands a Verdict") says,
"Even though they were crucified, stoned, stabbed, dragged, skinned and burned, every last apostle of Jesus proclaimed his resurrection until his dying breath, refusing to recant under pressure from the authorities. Therefore, their testimony is trustworthy and the resurrection is true."
Josh McDowell.

This is a demonstrable lie.

Sean McDowell, son of Josh McDowell, says:
If you have followed popularlevel arguments for the resurrection (or ever heard a sermon on the apostles), youve likely heard this argument. Growing up I heard it regularly and found it quite convincing. After all, why would the apostles of Jesus have died for their faith if it werent true?

Yet the question was always in the back of my mind how do we really know they died as martyrs?
(Note, he was told that lie by his father.)

The claim that all of Jesus' disciples were killed for their unwavering belief in the resurrection is a popular and often-repeated narrative. However, this claim is not entirely accurate and is based on a limited understanding of the available historical evidence.

Firstly, it is important to note that the historical record of the disciples' deaths is sparse and often unreliable. Many of the accounts of the disciples' deaths were written years or even centuries after the events they describe, and some of them contain obvious embellishments and inaccuracies.

Furthermore, there is significant debate among historians about the veracity of these accounts. Some historians argue that the disciples' deaths are well-documented and reliable, while others argue that the available evidence is too thin and contradictory to draw any definitive conclusions.

Even assuming that the accounts of the disciples' deaths are accurate, it is not clear that they were all killed specifically because of their belief in the resurrection. Many of the disciples lived and died in relative obscurity, and there is little or no historical record of how or why they died.

For example, we know almost nothing about the deaths of most of the disciples, including James the Less, Thaddaeus, and Simon the Zealot. The accounts of the deaths of Peter and Paul are somewhat more reliable, but they provide no evidence that these disciples were specifically targeted for their belief in the resurrection.

Moreover, it is worth noting that many religious figures throughout history have been persecuted and even killed for their beliefs. The fact that the disciples were killed for their beliefs does not necessarily make those beliefs true, nor does it provide any evidence for the resurrection itself.

In conclusion, while it is certainly possible that some or all of the disciples were killed for their beliefs, it is far from clear that this is the case. Furthermore, even if the accounts of the disciples' deaths are accurate, they do not provide any evidence for the resurrection itself. Therefore, the claim that the disciples were all killed for their belief in the resurrection is a problematic and oversimplified narrative that should be approached with caution.

1. To what extent do the deaths of the apostles prove the veracity of the resurrection story?
2. Can we trust the accounts of the apostles' deaths as historically accurate, or are they subject to bias and myth-making?
3. Is it possible for someone to be so convinced of a belief that they are willing to die for it, even if the belief is not true?
4. How do we reconcile the apostles' willingness to die for their belief in the resurrection with similar accounts of martyrs in other religions?
5. Do contemporary Christians have a responsibility to question the historical accuracy of their religious texts and teachings, or is faith sufficient?
6. If the clergy is lying so easily about this, what are we to believe about their other claims?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #51

Post by Clownboat »

The Tanager wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 2:36 pm
boatsnguitars wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:42 amThere were no witnesses to the Rez because it never happened. At some point, we've got to wake up to reality.
Thats a strong claim. Care to support it?
Bodies that have been dead for days, that are starting to liquify, do not reanimate to life. It is absurd to ask for evidence that this is not the case or to require such knowledge to be supported.
Being religious does not absolve a person from this, yet here we are.
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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #52

Post by The Tanager »

Clownboat wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:42 pmIf Jesus resurrected, why did the Jews not notice it? Or did they and they just thought, "no big deal"?
Some converted. Some let it be, thinking it didnt happen. Some persecuted Christians.
Clownboat wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 4:09 pmBodies that have been dead for days, that are starting to liquify, do not reanimate to life. It is absurd to ask for evidence that this is not the case or to require such knowledge to be supported.
Being religious does not absolve a person from this, yet here we are.
Its not absurd to ask people for evidence of their beliefs. Being secular does not absolve a person from that. Yet here we are. So, do you have evidence that a supernatural resurrection didnt happen? If not, then dont claim it. If you claim it, then support it. What naturally happens is irrelevant.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #53

Post by boatsnguitars »

The Tanager wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 2:36 pm
boatsnguitars wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:42 amThere were no witnesses to the Rez because it never happened. At some point, we've got to wake up to reality.
Thats a strong claim. Care to support it?
Where's the evidence? The default isn't to assume something incredibly impossible by all means known to man could happen, especially when we see people create all kinds of bizarre stories, religions, urban legends, tales.

The onus is not on me. It's enough to say you have no evidence: e.g, where is Jesus now?

This is what Religionists don't understand. They think everyone needs to believe their religious tale or else prove it wrong. It's messed up.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #54

Post by The Tanager »

boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:18 amWhere's the evidence? The default isn't to assume something incredibly impossible by all means known to man could happen, especially when we see people create all kinds of bizarre stories, religions, urban legends, tales.

The onus is not on me. It's enough to say you have no evidence: e.g, where is Jesus now?

This is what Religionists don't understand. They think everyone needs to believe their religious tale or else prove it wrong. It's messed up.
Im not saying that is the default. The default is agnosticism (in this case, "we dont know if the resurrection happened"). If that were your claim, I wouldnt have asked for your reasoning. Instead, if I had wanted to pursue a discussion I would make a claim and then I would try to carry that burden by offering rational support for that claim.

But that wasnt your claim, was it? You claimed the resurrection didnt happen. That is not the default position, agnosticism is. So, either support your claim (and shifting the burden is not a rational way to do so) or admit that was the wrong claim to make and change it to an agnostic one.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #55

Post by boatsnguitars »

The Tanager wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 9:02 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:18 amWhere's the evidence? The default isn't to assume something incredibly impossible by all means known to man could happen, especially when we see people create all kinds of bizarre stories, religions, urban legends, tales.

The onus is not on me. It's enough to say you have no evidence: e.g, where is Jesus now?

This is what Religionists don't understand. They think everyone needs to believe their religious tale or else prove it wrong. It's messed up.
Im not saying that is the default. The default is agnosticism (in this case, "we dont know if the resurrection happened"). If that were your claim, I wouldnt have asked for your reasoning. Instead, if I had wanted to pursue a discussion I would make a claim and then I would try to carry that burden by offering rational support for that claim.

But that wasnt your claim, was it? You claimed the resurrection didnt happen. That is not the default position, agnosticism is. So, either support your claim (and shifting the burden is not a rational way to do so) or admit that was the wrong claim to make and change it to an agnostic one.
The default is definitely NOT agnosticism. The default is extreme skepticism. Again, this is where religionists get it so completely wrong.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #56

Post by The Tanager »

boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 9:43 amThe default is definitely NOT agnosticism. The default is extreme skepticism. Again, this is where religionists get it so completely wrong.
Why is extreme skepticism the default?

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #57

Post by Clownboat »

Clownboat wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:42 pmIf Jesus resurrected, why did the Jews not notice it? Or did they and they just thought, "no big deal"?
The Tanager wrote:Some converted. Some let it be, thinking it didnt happen. Some persecuted Christians.
Sounds more likely that a dead man never returned to life and that the bodies of long dead saints didn't walk the streets of Jerusalem if you ask me. People returning to life after being dead for days or years is not something you just let be. Thinking it didn't happen is definitely the default though.
Clownboat wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 4:09 pmBodies that have been dead for days, that are starting to liquify, do not reanimate to life. It is absurd to ask for evidence that this is not the case or to require such knowledge to be supported.
Being religious does not absolve a person from this, yet here we are.
Its not absurd to ask people for evidence of their beliefs.

Correct, that is not absurd. Asking for evidence that a unicorn didn't break in to your home today and steal your fairies would be absurd though. That would be like asking for evidence as to why days dead bodies don't reanimate to life. Surely you don't require any evidence to not believe the unicorn story. Believing it until someone provided evidence that unicorns or fairies don't exist is absurd though.
Being secular does not absolve a person from that. Yet here we are. So, do you have evidence that a supernatural resurrection didnt happen?
Seriously? Please tell me you are not actually going to believe the unicorn/fairy story until someone provides evidence that neither are real!
If not, then dont claim it.
I will not allow you to shame me into not admitting that days dead bodies can reanimate to life. They can't and I also wont believe in unicorns or fairies until given a reason.
If you claim it, then support it.
You want me to support the claim that days old dead bodies don't reanimate to life?
What naturally happens is irrelevant.
Leaving this hear for all to read...
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #58

Post by POI »

The Tanager wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 7:51 pm do you have evidence that a supernatural resurrection didnt happen?
Or..... Do you have evidence that Muhammad did not fly to heaven on a white horse, supernaturally?

Or.... Do you have evidence Lord Xenu did not drop billions of souls into earthly volcanos, supernaturally?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #59

Post by POI »

The Tanager wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 2:38 pm
boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 9:43 amThe default is definitely NOT agnosticism. The default is extreme skepticism. Again, this is where religionists get it so completely wrong.
Why is extreme skepticism the default?
Claim #1: Jesus was placed on a cross and died. He was buried.
Claim #2. Jesus was placed on a cross and died. He was buried. He later resurrected supernaturally.

By default, do claims 1 and 2 carry the same level of skepticism?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #60

Post by boatsnguitars »

The Tanager wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 2:38 pm
boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 9:43 amThe default is definitely NOT agnosticism. The default is extreme skepticism. Again, this is where religionists get it so completely wrong.
Why is extreme skepticism the default?
Haha. Funny. Aliens and Big Foot are real, too, right?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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