Christianity's Problem

[POI]

God wants to communicate truth to his creation, right? Thus, if this is the case, then why communicate like he did? Many were/are illiterate, and/or are lazy. Meaning, many Christians have not made a true effort to read their Bible's, from cover to cover, and try to understand it completely. God would know all of this. But even if all read the Bible, and felt they understood every word, mass disagreement would soon develop anyways. As evidence by the endless denominations. Further, even the highly educated do not agree. Heck, we can even go as far as to establish that people who study hermeneutics do not agree. Even in the best case of scenarios, if everyone were to pick up a Bible, read it several times from cover to cover; mass disagreement, on many topics, would likely still persist.

For Debate:

Seems as though Jesus-God did a poor job in clearly conveying his message(s). Does Jesus-God REALLY wish to convey truth to his creation? Because if he does, why be satisfied with the published Bible?

[POI]

...The Bible sanctions/condones chattel slavery...

What are the sanctions?

I've already directly told you, more than once, in the 'slavery' thread. But, I have no problem spoon feeding it to you here again.

The Bible sanctions, and/or grants official permission or approval, for the following given instructions:

Exodus 21:

4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.

Leviticus 25:

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

*******************************

If you disagree, that the Bible provides instructions for chattel slavery, then please explain why. Otherwise, you need to acknowledge that the Bible provides an instruction manual for chattel slavery. In which I then ask, why do you disagree with god, unless you are okay with chattel slavery too?

[Diogenes]

The Bible sanctions, and/or grants official permission or approval, for the following given instructions:

Exodus 21:

4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.

Leviticus 25:

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

There is much... overwhelming evidence the Bible in both 'testaments' approves slavery as long as the slavers are members of the tribe and the slaves are not. Thus it is clear beyond reasonable doubt Judaism is a tribal religion which its bastard offspring, Christianity also adopted. Slavery and it's associated inhuman crimes have been part of Christian culture for 2000 years, well into the 20th Century.
What is the major lesson here? That Judaism and Christianity are tribal religions. They do not come from a universal God, but from a man made tribal little 'god,' one of many tribal gods invented by insular little tribes, with each tribe claiming, "Our god is the God!"



Biblical Underpinning for Slavery
Early Christianity and Slavery
Slavery in Medieval Christendom
The Portuguese Slave Trade
Spanish Slavery
The British Slave Trade
Slavery in North America
Frederick Douglass on Slavery and Christianity
Abolition of Slavery
Christian Slavery in Africa
Documents

https://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.co ... lavery.htm

[POI]

The Bible sanctions, and/or grants official permission or approval, for the following given instructions:

Exodus 21:

4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.

Leviticus 25:

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

There is much... overwhelming evidence the Bible in both 'testaments' approves slavery as long as the slavers are members of the tribe and the slaves are not. Thus it is clear beyond reasonable doubt Judaism is a tribal religion which its bastard offspring, Christianity also adopted. Slavery and it's associated inhuman crimes have been part of Christian culture for 2000 years, well into the 20th Century.
What is the major lesson here? That Judaism and Christianity are tribal religions. They do not come from a universal God, but from a man made tribal little 'god,' one of many tribal gods invented by insular little tribes, with each tribe claiming, "Our god is the God!"



Biblical Underpinning for Slavery
Early Christianity and Slavery
Slavery in Medieval Christendom
The Portuguese Slave Trade
Spanish Slavery
The British Slave Trade
Slavery in North America
Frederick Douglass on Slavery and Christianity
Abolition of Slavery
Christian Slavery in Africa
Documents

https://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.co ... lavery.htm

And this topic alone, should be enough to re-issue the OP question? Why in the heck is God satisfied with the published Bible? The instructions for slavery alone are either considered 'bad', incomplete, open for mass interpretation, other.... And this is IF you are a believer.

What IN THE HECK are we supposed to believe? With slavery alone, does Jesus frown upon slavery always, or just sometimes? Is the beating of slaves still okay? It's not really crystal clear. He leaves us hanging. It's rather reckless instructions, for such a hot topic. Meaning, its left open for legitimate debate. It's not like we are debating something as mundane as shellfish consumption here.... Which is also still debatable BTW.

[1213]

....
If you disagree, that the Bible provides instructions for chattel slavery, then please explain why. Otherwise, you need to acknowledge that the Bible provides an instruction manual for chattel slavery. In which I then ask, why do you disagree with god, unless you are okay with chattel slavery too?

I agree that Bible gives instructions for slave owning and buying. And, if all God's rules are taken into account, then I have no problem with that. I would have a problem, if people ignore all other rules God has given, like for example the commandment to love others.

[1213]

So... the solution you'd suggest is to bring back stoning?

I would like that law would be the same for all. It does not mean that I require that people are killed.

You've offered no support for your claim about justice depending on which 'party' one belongs to. ...

For example the January 6th people who rot in jail without fair trial, while others who have done the same or worse are free. democRats have done many similar things, but, maybe the worst case for this is Ray Epps. He is on video inciting the whole thing, but is still free. He is the only one who demonstrably incited it, but he is not in jail. And at the same time others are and Trump who didn't do anything like that is persecuted. Joe Biden's America looks very much like some kind of third world communistic nightmare. And, I think it is sad, because in my opinion USA was the last land of the free, with great constitution. When the story of free US ends, we have only tyranny left.

The facts just keep contradicting the prophesies from alleged "supernatural sources."

[Diogenes]

So... the solution you'd suggest is to bring back stoning?

I would like that law would be the same for all. It does not mean that I require that people are killed.

You've offered no support for your claim about justice depending on which 'party' one belongs to. ...

For example the January 6th people who rot in jail without fair trial, while others who have done the same or worse are free. democRats have done many similar things, but, maybe the worst case for this is Ray Epps. He is on video inciting the whole thing, but is still free. He is the only one who demonstrably incited it, but he is not in jail. And at the same time others are and Trump who didn't do anything like that is persecuted. Joe Biden's America looks very much like some kind of third world communistic nightmare. And, I think it is sad, because in my opinion USA was the last land of the free, with great constitution. When the story of free US ends, we have only tyranny left.

The facts just keep contradicting the prophesies from alleged "supernatural sources."

Ah... I am beginning to see why you believe in the Bible- you prefer myths to evidence. Besides the insurrection on Jan. 6 by Trump supporters chanting "Hang Mike Pence," please tell us when Democrats stormed the Capitol, breaking in and killing people. I'll wait, but won't hold my breath. I don't believe you have EVER documented or supported with evidence a single thing you have ever claimed.

On 06 January 2021, hundreds of individuals converged on and broke into the United States (US) Capitol in an attempt to stop the confirmation of the Presidential election. In the immediate aftermath of the Capitol Riot the US Department of Justice (DOJ) has commenced the largest federal investigation in its history. Federal law enforcement’s search for individuals who committed federal offenses during the riot has since amassed more than 200,000 digital media tips, 14,000 hours of body cam videos, and the contents of more than 1,600 electronic devices.

https://www.icct.nl/publication/assessi ... stigations

Six Additional Oath Keepers Members and Affiliates Found Guilty of Charges Related to Capitol Breach
Five Defendants Found Guilty of Conspiracy to Obstruct the Certification of the 2020 Presidential Election

Six additional members and affiliates of the Oath Keepers were found guilty in the District of Columbia today for their actions during the Jan. 6, 2021, Capitol breach. Their actions and the actions of others disrupted a joint session of the U.S. Congress convened to ascertain and count the electoral votes related to the presidential election.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/six-addi ... ed-capitol

WASHINGTON — Four members of the far-right Proud Boys organization were found guilty Thursday of seditious conspiracy in connection with the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justic ... -rcna81129

I defended serious criminal cases for 40 years in the U.S. I NEVER once heard a prosecutor (usually Republicans) or a police officer (always Republicans or ultra conservative) EVER even ask about whether someone was a Democrat or a Republican.

[POI]

....
If you disagree, that the Bible provides instructions for chattel slavery, then please explain why. Otherwise, you need to acknowledge that the Bible provides an instruction manual for chattel slavery. In which I then ask, why do you disagree with god, unless you are okay with chattel slavery too?

I agree that Bible gives instructions for slave owning and buying. And, if all God's rules are taken into account, then I have no problem with that. I would have a problem, if people ignore all other rules God has given, like for example the commandment to love others.

Great, if we take all the given rules into account, you are instructed that you may beat your slaves with virtual impunity, keep the women for life, keep the off-spring children for life, and keep the foreigners for life, and also treat some of them as property for life.

You are in between a rock and a hard place either way. Which one is it?:

A) Rock = you agree with god's instruction(s)
B) Hard place = you disagree with god's instruction(s)

[tam]

Peace to you,

God wants to communicate truth to his creation, right? Thus, if this is the case, then why communicate like he did? Many were/are illiterate, and/or are lazy. Meaning, many Christians have not made a true effort to read their Bible's, from cover to cover, and try to understand it completely. God would know all of this.

Where even in the bible is it written that God chooses to communicate with man via a book? God communicated to people in dreams or via an angel or via His Son or even directly as Himself (the last much more rare). We wouldn't even have a book that records some of the communications that God has had with men if God had not first communicated by some other means.

But even if all read the Bible, and felt they understood every word, mass disagreement would soon develop anyways. As evidence by the endless denominations. Further, even the highly educated do not agree. Heck, we can even go as far as to establish that people who study hermeneutics do not agree. Even in the best case of scenarios, if everyone were to pick up a Bible, read it several times from cover to cover; mass disagreement, on many topics, would likely still persist.

Yes.

But God did not give us a book and tell us to listen to that. He gave us His Son. Even according to that very book, He said, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him."

And again, even in that book, that Son did not say we can know God and everything God wants if we read the bible. No, that Son said, "If you know me, you know my Father as well."

For Debate:

Seems as though Jesus-God did a poor job in clearly conveying his message(s). Does Jesus-God REALLY wish to convey truth to his creation? Because if he does, why be satisfied with the published Bible?

This appears to be based on an assumption that God chose the bible as His means to communicate with mankind. But that is not what even that book shows:


Abraham heard God and obeyed. He did not read it in a book that God wanted him to leave the land of his father's people and come into a new land.

Noah heard God and built the ark. He did not read it in a book.

The Word of God came to the prophets. The prophets heard and believed and did/spoke what they were told to do/speak.


This direct communication (rather than via a book) did not stop in the NT.

Sure, in the NT, people later wrote down accounts of what had happened among them. People also wrote letters to individuals and to congregations when they could not be present to speak with them in person; otherwise, we would not have had a recording. But Revelation is an example of Christ communicating directly to a man (John of Patmos). John heard (and saw) things while in the spirit, and then he wrote these things down as he was told to do. Even the recordings of things that happened among them (such as Acts) records Christ (the Spirit) speaking directly to people.


These are all examples of direct, real-time communication.



Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ (who lives and who speaks),
tammy

[Diogenes]

....
If you disagree, that the Bible provides instructions for chattel slavery, then please explain why. Otherwise, you need to acknowledge that the Bible provides an instruction manual for chattel slavery. In which I then ask, why do you disagree with god, unless you are okay with chattel slavery too?

I agree that Bible gives instructions for slave owning and buying. And, if all God's rules are taken into account, then I have no problem with that. I would have a problem, if people ignore all other rules God has given, like for example the commandment to love others.

Great, if we take all the given rules into account, you are instructed that you may beat your slaves with virtual impunity, keep the women for life, keep the off-spring children for life, and keep the foreigners for life, and also treat some of them as property for life.

You are in between a rock and a hard place either way. Which one is it?:

A) Rock = you agree with god's instruction(s)
B) Hard place = you disagree with god's instruction(s)

Well... let's see if we can help 1213 with his dilemma:

“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result,
but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
_ Exodus 21
Hmmm... I think I've got it. You can beat even your female slave nearly to death, with a rod, as long as you beat her with love.
Got it. Problem solved. Jesus must be proud.

[Diogenes]

Peace to you,

God wants to communicate truth to his creation, right? Thus, if this is the case, then why communicate like he did? Many were/are illiterate, and/or are lazy. Meaning, many Christians have not made a true effort to read their Bible's, from cover to cover, and try to understand it completely. God would know all of this.

Where even in the bible is it written that God chooses to communicate with man via a book? God communicated to people in dreams or via an angel or via His Son or even directly as Himself (the last much more rare). We wouldn't even have a book that records some of the communications that God has had with men if God had not first communicated by some other means.

And you know this how? O! That's right, through a book written by men who claimed God told them in a dream or with an angel or by another guy the book writer said was His Son. Got it, thru a book... OR... did an angel tell you? A dream? Were you walking down the road to Damascus? Did you need to go without food or drink for three days or . . . maybe you ate mushrooms? Did the angel drop off Golden Tablets that have disappeared? I hope God does not tell you to kill your son. O! That's right! I forgot, God only talks to men.


Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave to truth,

Danny