Is the Christian world view really one of hope?

[TruthSeeker1]

Christians on this site and elsewhere continually preach the idea that the Christian religion is one of hope. Many go so far as to say that those who are not Christian have no hope, only with the Christian viewpoint can one have a hopeful life.

The Christian has to accept that while he may be "saved", many others including non-believing family members and friends are destined for an eternity of torment. Does it really bring more "hope" for Christians to know that a few will enjoy eternal bliss while billions of others including most of the world's impoverished will be eternally tortured?

The question for debate: Is it really honest to call the Christian belief system one of hope?

[4gold]

Not allowed according to whom? I can think whatever I like. Who is capable of stopping me? Hope is not the sole property of Christians. I feel it's unlikely that an atheist would hope that God would be real, if that is what you mean by hope, but such a hope does not contradict atheism. Saying 'I now believe that God exists' would.

If an atheist hopes God is real, he would not be an atheist.

An atheist, if true to his own worldview, must believe there is no future for him after his death.

[Fallibleone]

In my opinion, you are confusing hope and belief. I hope that I will win the lottery, but I do not believe that I will. Therefore it is quite possible for an atheist to have hope.

[4gold]

In my opinion, you are confusing hope and belief. I hope that I will win the lottery, but I do not believe that I will. Therefore it is quite possible for an atheist to have hope.

An atheist can have hope. My atheist friends share my delusions that the Lions will win the Super Bowl someday (if that happens, it is undeniable proof that God exists!)

But an atheist cannot have hope that there is a future for himself after he dies, because if he did have that kind of hope he'd no longer be an atheist. He'd be an agnostic, at minimum.

What separates atheistic hope from theistic hope is what happens to you after death. In the sense that there is hope after death, a Christian worldview offers this. An atheistic worldview does not.

[Fallibleone]

In my opinion, you are confusing hope and belief. I hope that I will win the lottery, but I do not believe that I will. Therefore it is quite possible for an atheist to have hope.

An atheist can have hope. My atheist friends share my delusions that the Lions will win the Super Bowl someday (if that happens, it is undeniable proof that God exists!)

Yes, an atheist can have hope, I'm glad we agree on this point. An atheist can even have hope of things which are more profound than which team wins the Superbowl.

But an atheist cannot have hope that there is a future for himself after he dies, because if he did have that kind of hope he'd no longer be an atheist. He'd be an agnostic, at minimum.

The definition of atheism as I understand it does not hinge on hope, but belief, or rather lack thereof. I concede that not many atheists would hope for the existence of the Christian God, but I understand this to be more to do with the nature and personality of that specific God.

What separates atheistic hope from theistic hope is what happens to you after death.

No, I think that is what separates atheistic belief from theistic belief.

[4gold]

The definition of atheism as I understand it does not hinge on hope, but belief, or rather lack thereof. I concede that not many atheists would hope for the existence of the Christian God, but I understand this to be more to do with the nature and personality of that specific God.

No, I think that is what separates atheistic belief from theistic belief.

But an atheist is not allowed to believe in hope for themselves after death, or else they would not be an atheist. One of the consequences of believing that the supernatural does not exist is that there is nothing after death.

If an atheist did hope for something in the afterlife, he could no longer call himself an atheist, as something in the afterlife would be supernatural.

[BozzyB]

If an atheist did hope for something in the afterlife, he could no longer call himself an atheist, as something in the afterlife would be supernatural.

Not true, athiesm is just the belief that no god/gods exist. So an atheist could beleive in reincarnation (life after death) and still not beleive that god exists. Like buddhists, my understanding is that they are atheist, but also buddhist (or should that be the other way around?).

I guess my point is that atheism isn't exclusive, you don't have to just be an atheist. You can be buddhist and atheist, for example. Obviously though, there are faiths that don't work well with atheism, such as christianity.




BozzyB

[4gold]

If an atheist did hope for something in the afterlife, he could no longer call himself an atheist, as something in the afterlife would be supernatural.

Not true, athiesm is just the belief that no god/gods exist. So an atheist could beleive in reincarnation (life after death) and still not beleive that god exists. Like buddhists, my understanding is that they are atheist, but also buddhist (or should that be the other way around?).

I guess my point is that atheism isn't exclusive, you don't have to just be an atheist. You can be buddhist and atheist, for example. Obviously though, there are faiths that don't work well with atheism, such as christianity.




BozzyB

First of all, Buddhists are not atheists. They do believe in gods, but they do not worship these gods.

Second, if an atheist believed in reincarnation, but not in God, we would not call him an atheist. We'd call him a mystic or some other more appropriate label that describes a belief in the supernatural.

By definition, an atheist cannot believe in the supernatural.

[BozzyB]

First of all, Buddhists are not atheists. They do believe in gods, but they do not worship these gods.

Well I guess I'm wrong on that count. I didn't know that they beleived in gods.


Does my point not still hold some validity? For example, if there was a religion (I can't say I know enough of them to be sure) that didn't believe in any gods, could that religion not class its followers as atheist as a natural by-product of their religion, on top of whatever their followers were normally called?

Second, if an atheist believed in reincarnation, but not in God, we would not call him an atheist. We'd call him a mystic or some other more appropriate label that describes a belief in the supernatural.

But wouldn't these 'mystics' also be atheists, as well as mysitcs?

By definition, an atheist cannot believe in the supernatural.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=atheist

Atheist: "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."

I don't see how that "By definition, an atheist cannot believe in the supernatural", when all that is needed to qualify as an atheist is simply a disbelief in the existance of god/gods? The deffinition of atheism doesn't in any way exclude the supernatural, only gods.





BozzyB

[4gold]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=atheist

Atheist: "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."

I don't see how that "By definition, an atheist cannot believe in the supernatural", when all that is needed to qualify as an atheist is simply a disbelief in the existance of god/gods? The deffinition of atheism doesn't in any way exclude the supernatural, only gods.

I tend to use the definition as atheists describe themselves.

"As there is no scientific evidence for supernatural phenomena, atheists reject belief in 'God', gods and other supernatural beings. The universe, the world in which we live, and the evolution of life, are entirely natural occurrences.

No personality or mind can exist without the process of living matter to sustain it. We have only one life - here and now. All that remains after a person dies is the memory of their life and deeds in the minds of those who live."

[Fallibleone]

The definition of atheism as I understand it does not hinge on hope, but belief, or rather lack thereof. I concede that not many atheists would hope for the existence of the Christian God, but I understand this to be more to do with the nature and personality of that specific God.

No, I think that is what separates atheistic belief from theistic belief.

But an atheist is not allowed to believe in hope for themselves after death, or else they would not be an atheist. One of the consequences of believing that the supernatural does not exist is that there is nothing after death.

If an atheist did hope for something in the afterlife, he could no longer call himself an atheist, as something in the afterlife would be supernatural.

What is this belief in hope you are referring to? I have already explained that it is easy to believe in hope, seeing as we all experience it. An atheist is allowed to hope for whatever they want to. How about this one - I hope with all my heart for world peace in my lifetime but I do not believe it will happen.

I think it is understood that atheists do not believe in life after death. This has nothing whatsoever to do with hope in my opinion.

If an atheist did hope for something in the afterlife, he could no longer call himself an atheist, as something in the afterlife would be supernatural.

I'm afraid that I can only find so many ways of explaining the same thing. The words hope and belief are not, as I understand them, interchangeable.