Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[1213]

Then how does one get a righteous mind? It sounds like they get their morals from the Bible (NT not OT, I hope) and put them into practice.

One can get righteous mind, right understanding from the Bible. It can show a person what is good and right. But, I think it is possible that person can have the right understanding by some other way also. However, in all cases, when person has that right understanding, he wants to freely do what is good and right.

If you mean that Belief in God/Jesus is required before one can get God's correct moral mindset (which is Righteousness) then that is what i said - Faith in God existing is needed before belief in what God says to do, or in Christianity, Faith in Jesus is what makes Righteous rather than just living as he says to do. Faith, not works.

Believing or doing something doesn't make righteous. But, if person is righteous, he will do righteous actions. And I think one righteous action is to be loyal/faithful to God.

Here's the thing, or another thing. You reckon that Abraham doing what God said to do made him Righteous.

No, what he did, didn't make him righteous, it was only the reason why he was counted righteous. His action showed that he has righteous mind. Before one can make truly righteous actions, he should have righteous mind, because all actions come from the mind.

[1213]

Then I still have to press. It looks like you accept that doing the right either by following the moral teachings of Jesus (rather than the nasty ones in the OT never mind the one in the other Abrahamic God - given morality of the Quaran or indeed LDS which only gave up polygamy for political reasons rather than doctrinal) or the best human moral codes, or both.

In which case why do we need Christianity at all?

It depends on what is Christianity. Bible tells the reason why Jesus was sent is:

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the bro-kenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to pro-claim the acceptable year of the Lord."... ..."I must preach the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other cities also. For this reason I have been sent."
Luke 4:18-19, 43

For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. He who be-lieves in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:17-21

Pilate therefore said to him, "Are you a king then?" Jesus an-swered, "You say that I am a king. For this reason I have been born, and for this reason I have come into the world, that I should testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice."
John 18:37

and reformation and remission of sins to be proclaimed in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem:
Luke 24:27

So, if Christianity means to be a disciple of Jesus and to declare the message that he told, sins have bee forgiven, repent and renounce sin. I think that is needed, because I think it is the benefit of humans, if they reject sin and become righteous. And I think the moral teachings of Jesus are also the moral teachings of God, because Jesus told what God had commanded him to speak and the same ideas can be found also from OT.

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak.
John 12:49-50

...Why not following moral codes of other religions? Why does the moral teaching of Jesus count for more than the moral teachings of the Quran?

Can you give one example of moral code from Quran?

You see, it looks like if you give up Faith in Jesus as the thing that saves and NOT the moral code, you have no need for Jesus at all, never mind no need for the Bible. You have not only invented your own brand of Christianity, you have invented a new brand of atheist apologetic.

You still don't understand what I try to say. Moral code doesn't save, God saves those who are righteous.

P.s I have to argue that your particular doctrine is not what the Bible teaches. Despite your neat point that Paul meant Abraham believed (in what was said by) God rather that 'Abraham believed (in) God', I think that Faith in God added to by Faith in Jesus as resurrected messiah (needed to wipe out the extra sinning under the law) rather than morals, is what saves. And Mainstream Christian doctrine rather suggests that the Bible experts thought so too, doesn't it?

If person is a Christian, a disciple of Jesus, I would recommend him to remain in what Jesus taught.

Tell me, if you can, aren't you really reading the Bible to suit yourself and reckoning you have it 'as the Bible says' in the face of Mainstream doctrine, because you have Faith and think that God hath revealethed the Truth unto you, isn't it?

I try to avoid adding anything own to what is said in the Bible. If you think I have done so, please show a scripture that I have twisted to mean something else than what Bible actually says?

I think truth is revealed in the Bible. And the message is the same for all. By what I see, the problem comes when people take just one line from it and then turn it to their religion while ignoring all the parts in the Bible that gives the correct meaning for the one line.

[TRANSPONDER]

Let's try to decide on a significant point

"You still don't understand what I try to say. Moral code doesn't save, God saves those who are righteous."

The moral code itself doesn't save - nobody is saying it does. But is the Righteousness that makes them salvable through the moral code or through Faith in Jesus?

As to morals inb the Quran, it's easy to look it up
"And worship Allah and associate not aught with Him; and unto parents show kindness, and also unto kindred and orphans and the needy and the near neighbour and the distant neighbour and the companion by your side and the wayfarer and those whom your right hands own Verily Allah loveth not one who is vainglorious, boaster"-[Quran; 4:36]

"I think truth is revealed in the Bible. And the message is the same for all. By what I see, the problem comes when people take just one line from it and then turn it to their religion while ignoring all the parts in the Bible that gives the correct meaning for the one line."

But that's just what I see you doing. You have an idea, an interpretation or a belief and you pick a line that appears to support that and ignore the passages that don't.
You strawman what I say about your reading of the Bible. I didn't say you'added anything'to it. You took the aspect of following the morals indicated and read it as being the thing that saved. I'm saying other passages indicate that Faith in Jesus existing and being what the Bible says he is, is what saves. Or at least believing what Christianity says he is is what makes a person a mainstream Christian at least.

You quoted John "He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God."

Believes in him, not 'believes what he says to do.Belief - Faith - in Jesus, that he is real, exists and is who it is said he is. This is a passage you quoted while ignoring the import.

[POI]

...imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? ...

I think Bible is a perfect book. The confusion doesn't come from the Bible, nor from God, because the message is clear in the Bible for everyone who remains in truth.

I give up. You continue to ignore practically every rebuttal I provide. You are either unwilling or unable to debate this topic. Either/or, I'm out. Thanks for your time, I guess.

[1213]

...imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? ...

I think Bible is a perfect book. The confusion doesn't come from the Bible, nor from God, because the message is clear in the Bible for everyone who remains in truth.

I give up. You continue to ignore practically every rebuttal I provide. You are either unwilling or unable to debate this topic. Either/or, I'm out. Thanks for your time, I guess.

Sorry to hear that. I don't think I have ignored anything. Please tell, what did I last time ignore?

[1213]

...But is the Righteousness that makes them salvable through the moral code or through Faith in Jesus?...

I think the reason why God gives the gift for righteous is that the righteous will use it in the right way.

As to morals inb the Quran, it's easy to look it up
"And worship Allah and associate not aught with Him; and unto parents show kindness, and also unto kindred and orphans and the needy and the near neighbour and the distant neighbour and the companion by your side and the wayfarer and those whom your right hands own Verily Allah loveth not one who is vainglorious, boaster"-[Quran; 4:36]

That is one reason to think that maybe the original message in Quran is from Bible God, it is basically the same.

But that's just what I see you doing. You have an idea, an interpretation or a belief and you pick a line that appears to support that and ignore the passages that don't.

Sorry, I don't think I have really ignored any line.

You strawman what I say about your reading of the Bible. I didn't say you'added anything'to it. You took the aspect of following the morals indicated and read it as being the thing that saved. I'm saying other passages indicate that Faith in Jesus existing and being what the Bible says he is, is what saves. Or at least believing what Christianity says he is is what makes a person a mainstream Christian at least.

I think that is not right, because it leaves out many important parts from the Bible. I think that is superficial understanding of the matter. To understand correctly, one must also notice that eternal life is promised for righteous and righteousness is not the same as believing or being faithful, it is the reason why one believes the truth and wants to be faithful to God.

You quoted John "He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God."

Believes in him, not 'believes what he says to do.Belief - Faith - in Jesus, that he is real, exists and is who it is said he is. This is a passage you quoted while ignoring the import.

And I also told what is the judgment:

...This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
[/i]John 3:16-21

I think it would be very good not to ignore that part. If you are and remain evil, you will be judged by that.

[POI]

The God of the Bible is the purveyor of confusion. Why?

How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process?

Answer key:

A) All go because of his grace
B) Faith/belief
C) Works
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 462: 1213 answer F)

*********************

Christians, imagine you are God for a moment. You are the creator of humans, and you really want a permanent relationship with your creation. You know most humans are either illiterate, stupid, and/or easily blinded/distracted by unwanted forces (natural and supernatural alike). You know there exists these collections of writings we later call the Bible, which apparently gives a road map on how to achieve eternal bliss - (or go to Heaven). You also know, because you are God, that most people will not achieve it. Many of which, however, try as they might. Would you, imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? I'll answer, as a fellow imaginer... No. I would not be satisfied. If I know the majority of my creation was, (again), illiterate, dumb, and/or easily distracted, I will make sure the written word was very easy to follow and also not leave any room for interpretation. You know, like all here clearly agree that God does not like murder, theft, trespassing, etc. And YET, we have countless denominations, all earnest in their attempt to translate what the Bible says. In essence, I blame God. He could provide any tool for the task and chose this one? All we have is the Bible. And as we have discovered, none of you fine folks agree. If you were God, I bet you would have devised a better plan of attack. What'za think?

[1213]

The God of the Bible is the purveyor of confusion. Why?

How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process?

Answer key:

A) All go because of his grace
B) Faith/belief
C) Works
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)...

What do you think about these, are these clear to you? Do they tell correctly what is the criteria?

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Matt. 5:20
Or don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor extortioners, will inherit the Kingdom of God.
1 Cor. 6:9-10
But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation, and said to them, "Allow the little children to come to me! Don't forbid them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Most as-suredly I tell you, whoever will not receive the Kingdom of God like a little child, he will in no way enter into it."
Mark 10:14-15
and said, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless you turn, and become as little children, you will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Matt. 18:3

To enter heaven, one must be righteous. Is this not clear? Is there some scripture that tells the opposite?

[TRANSPONDER]

The God of the Bible is the purveyor of confusion. Why?

How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process?

Answer key:

A) All go because of his grace
B) Faith/belief
C) Works
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)...

What do you think about these, are these clear to you? Do they tell correctly what is the criteria?

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Matt. 5:20
Or don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor extortioners, will inherit the Kingdom of God.
1 Cor. 6:9-10
But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation, and said to them, "Allow the little children to come to me! Don't forbid them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Most as-suredly I tell you, whoever will not receive the Kingdom of God like a little child, he will in no way enter into it."
Mark 10:14-15
and said, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless you turn, and become as little children, you will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Matt. 18:3

To enter heaven, one must be righteous. Is this not clear? Is there some scripture that tells the opposite?

No, that does you no good. Because while those passages underline why not doing the Right thing can lose Grace, doing the right thing will not gain it; that comes through Faith in Jesus.

Also don't forget that Jews are still subject to the OT law and don't get saved unless they keep the Law without sinning, which Paul implies they don't do. The implication is that they could be saved without Jesusfaith IF they kept the Mosaic Law perfectly and sinned not.

The Gospel message is, You gotta do better, senator' The Christian has to act better than the Pharisees (1) or he could risk losing the Grace they had earned through Faith in Jesus.

(1) I hate these references as the Bible does a hatchet job on the Pharisees who were a respected popular movement, the basis of today's Rabbis and synagogues, and Christianity has been hostile to them as well.

[POI]

Another bump for Christians:

The God of the Bible is the purveyor of confusion. Why?

How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process?

Answer key:

A) All go because of his grace
B) Faith/belief
C) Works
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 462: 1213 answer F)

*********************

Christians, imagine you are God for a moment. You are the creator of humans, and you really want a permanent relationship with your creation. You know most humans are either illiterate, stupid, and/or easily blinded/distracted by unwanted forces (natural and supernatural alike). You know there exists these collections of writings we later call the Bible, which apparently gives a road map on how to achieve eternal bliss - (or go to Heaven). You also know, because you are God, that most people will not achieve it. Many of which, however, try as they might. Would you, imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? I'll answer, as a fellow imaginer... No. I would not be satisfied. If I know the majority of my creation was, (again), illiterate, dumb, and/or easily distracted, I will make sure the written word was very easy to follow and also not leave any room for interpretation. You know, like all here clearly agree that God does not like murder, theft, trespassing, etc. And YET, we have countless denominations, all earnest in their attempt to translate what the Bible says. In essence, I blame God. He could provide any tool for the task and chose this one? All we have is the Bible. And as we have discovered, none of you fine folks agree. If you were God, I bet you would have devised a better plan of attack. What'za think?