Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[POI]

You are mistaken. God claims he can make his message crystal clear. ... ...And yet, none of you fine Christian folks agree about God's path to salvation? You demonstrate the exact same things other Christians do. You emphasize certain verses, while not dong so for other verses which also suggest a differing path. Why not just instead ask yourself... "Which path is it"?

Sorry, I don't think you can demonstrate Bible, the God's message, to be unclear. The words are as they are, nothing unclear in them. The problems are in the doctrines people make, not in the message in the Bible.

I have repeatedly demonstrated the point of this thread. None of you agree. Many other earnest Christians responded here. You are the only one which thinks the path to salvation requires 'righteousness', (in the specific way you believe the Bible suggests 'righteousness.') Your believed upon path is not in line with the others. Since the topic of salvation is an important one, why is Jesus-God's message so unclear? (i.e.):

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 462: 1213 answer F)
Post 564: Mea Von H answer B)

[1213]

...
I have repeatedly demonstrated the point of this thread. None of you agree. Many other earnest Christians responded here. You are the only one which thinks the path to salvation requires 'righteousness', (in the specific way you believe the Bible suggests 'righteousness.') Your believed upon path is not in line with the others. Since the topic of salvation is an important one, why is Jesus-God's message so unclear?...

If you try to prove Bible unclear, I think you should speak of what scripture is unclear. If for example we take:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46

What is unclear in that? Isn't it the same for all? Does someone say it means something else than what it actually says?

I think there is nothing unclear in that, unless one doesn't want to accept that to be true.

[1213]

... we get told so often that what the Bible says is not what it means. The sun made after day and night really isn't that,

Who and where has said so?

Jesus telling people to give all they have to the poor and follow him doesn't literally mean that,

It is interesting that you cut and twist the teachings so that the meaning changes. Why not be honest and take it entirely as it is written, without distorting the message?

the guarantee that whatever you ask in faith (even as small as a mustard seed) and it will be granted - even uprooting a tree into the drink, doesn't really mean that, and Jesus saying he'd come back (and on the clouds with the Janacek fanfare to wake everyone up in the lifetime of the ones listening to hi of course doesn't mean that. Clear as mud.

I think everything in Bible means exactly what the Bible tells it means.

[boatsnguitars]

I think everything in Bible means exactly what the Bible tells it means.

But, of course, you must decide which is literal, figurative, etc... And, of course, it's up to how you feel about a passage, and all that. Or, if you use a certain translation... Of course. But, it's all very clear!

That's why there aren't debates, especially among Christians, especially scholars, but really from anyone in the world. There are no sects or denominations. It's just one, solid, happy family of understanding and agreement on all the passages of the Bible.

Or so 1213 would like us to believe.


edit: What is particularly interesting is that 1213 can go to the "Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma" section of the forum and be free of atheist comments. It's pretty much only Christians - so, you'd think there would be only one thread: "Isn't It Great How We All Agree!?"
But, no, it's chock full of debates and arguments about what the Bible says.

Why doesn't 1213 just go there and tell everyone what's what? Give us the 1213 Translation of the NT and end all the strife!

[POI]

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46

What is unclear in that? Isn't it the same for all? Does someone say it means something else than what it actually says?

I think there is nothing unclear in that, unless one doesn't want to accept that to be true.

It's unclear because you and I interpret the word "righteousness' differently, when using the Bible to do so. Case/point, I refer to Romans 3 and 4 which tells us 'righteousness' is merely synonymous with the term faith. Thus, the verse you provided tells us believers are saved, unbelievers aren't, which would elude to answer B). Your alternative interpretation of the term 'righteousness' will lead you to believe either C) or D). And this is not even examining the rest, about "eternal punishment." I mean, does this mean unbelievers go to a literal hell, or not? SO much to unpack, even if this WAS the verse which tells you so.

[TRANSPONDER]

... we get told so often that what the Bible says is not what it means. The sun made after day and night really isn't that,

Who and where has said so?

Jesus telling people to give all they have to the poor and follow him doesn't literally mean that,

It is interesting that you cut and twist the teachings so that the meaning changes. Why not be honest and take it entirely as it is written, without distorting the message?

the guarantee that whatever you ask in faith (even as small as a mustard seed) and it will be granted - even uprooting a tree into the drink, doesn't really mean that, and Jesus saying he'd come back (and on the clouds with the Janacek fanfare to wake everyone up in the lifetime of the ones listening to hi of course doesn't mean that. Clear as mud.

I think everything in Bible means exactly what the Bible tells it means.

I'm pretty sure it was you that argued the sun was not made after daylight but there are the other examples where apologists (if not you) deny the circle of the earth as flat (that was you I'm sure) that a guarantee to answer any prayer isn't what it says (you again) and Jesus returning in the lifetimes of the disciples is not what it means (wasn't that you?) and giving all to the poor, which you deny here and accuse me of doing what you are doing. "It is interesting that you cut and twist the teachings so that the meaning changes. Why not be honest and take it entirely as it is written, without distorting the message?" absolutely applies to you rather than to me.


Off page 1 interet:People also ask
Did Jesus say give all you have to the poor?
Matthew 19:21-24 The Message (MSG)
"If you want to give it all you've got," Jesus replied, "go sell your possessions; give everything to the poor. All your wealth will then be in heaven. Then come follow me." That was the last thing the young man expected to hear. And so, crestfallen, he walked away.

This is clear.the young richard could not give all (or nearly all) away so this is not about a handful of change. Everyone understand this passage and its' meaning, except for you it seems, and you still accuse me of not even misunderstanding but twisting and misrepresenting. I'm not going to point the finger as you aren't to blame; Biblefaith does this; it is like an illness from which people have to be cured. But first they have admit that they are made sick by religion, faith and making apologetics excuses.

Does this mean what it says, or does it mean something else? Matth 24.30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

And does the Bible mean what it says, here? Or does it 'Mean'something else?
Genesis 1
in the beginning - God started creation.
the first day - light was created.
the second day - the sky was created.
the third day - dry land, seas, plants and trees were created.
the fourth day - the Sun, Moon and stars were created.
the fifth day - creatures that live in the sea and creatures that fly were created.

First day, day and night, light and dark, morning an evening, not some Cosmic radiation. Fourth day Sun and moon created. That is what it says. Does it mean what it says?

incidentally, I had a look to see wot was on the 'net debunking the flood and just ONE such vid and the rest a deluge of Bible apologetics arguing for the Flood...but I did see this pop up and thought it might be useful here.

If we can use the final song from 'Life of Brian' at funerals, I'm sure this reading will be suitable at weddings.



(p.s "Wot... only one like or all the posts I put in during the small hours?"

"There's no pleasing some people".

[1213]

Did Jesus say give all you have to the poor?

Thank you for giving the address for the scripture, now we can look what Jesus said and to what it was related:

Jesus said to him, If you desire to be perfect, go sell your property and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven; and come, follow Me. But hearing the word, being grieved, the young man went away, for he had many possessions. And Jesus said to His disciples, Truly I say to you that a rich man will with great difficulty enter into the kingdom of Heaven. And again I say to you, It is easier for a camel to pass through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
Matthew 19:21-24

1) if you want to be perfect
2) go sell your property and give it to the poor
3) go follow Jesus.

You can do the first part, if you want to be perfect, but because Jesus is not on earth, you can't do the part 3 in that.

Does this mean what it says, or does it mean something else? Matth 24.30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

I think it means what it says. I think all of those could have happened already. And, if "this generation" does not mean the people that were with Jesus that day, it can mean the generation that sees those things, or the nation of Israel. I think there are 3 possible options in that. And because Jesus tells he doesn't know the day, the correct meaning is either the generation that sees the things, or it means the nation, as the original word can be translated to mean nation.

First day, day and night, light and dark, morning an evening, not some Cosmic radiation. Fourth day Sun and moon created. That is what it says. Does it mean what it says?

I think Bible means what it says.

[1213]

It's unclear because you and I interpret the word "righteousness' differently, when using the Bible to do so. Case/point, I refer to Romans 3 and 4 which tells us 'righteousness' is merely synonymous with the term faith.

Is there some good reason to interpret it poorly?

Thus, the verse you provided tells us believers are saved, unbelievers aren't, which would elude to answer B). Your alternative interpretation of the term 'righteousness' will lead you to believe either C) or D). And this is not even examining the rest, about "eternal punishment." I mean, does this mean unbelievers go to a literal hell, or not? SO much to unpack, even if this WAS the verse which tells you so.

Bible gives no reason to think faith and belief are the same.

Bible tells a lot about what righteous means. I recommend everyone to read it. I think it would be good to understand that righteousness means wisdom of the just. If person has that right understanding, it leads to right actions (in this case faith/faithfulness is also action, loyalty to God). Righteous will get the eternal life as a gift, I believe because they have the right understanding that makes them to do right actions and live well.

In Bible the eternal punishment is the eternal fire lake, which is called also hell. And about it we can know that soul and body is destroyed there and that it burns forever. And it is for those who are not righteous.

Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna [also translated hell].
Matt. 10:28

[1213]

But, of course, you must decide which is literal, figurative, etc... And, of course, it's up to how you feel about a passage, and all that. Or, if you use a certain translation.

Bible explains what it means, it should not depend on what reader feels. And, the correct translation can be seen when one doesn't ignore the context.

[TRANSPONDER]

Did Jesus say give all you have to the poor?

Thank you for giving the address for the scripture, now we can look what Jesus said and to what it was related:

Jesus said to him, If you desire to be perfect, go sell your property and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven; and come, follow Me. But hearing the word, being grieved, the young man went away, for he had many possessions. And Jesus said to His disciples, Truly I say to you that a rich man will with great difficulty enter into the kingdom of Heaven. And again I say to you, It is easier for a camel to pass through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
Matthew 19:21-24

1) if you want to be perfect
2) go sell your property and give it to the poor
3) go follow Jesus.

You can do the first part, if you want to be perfect, but because Jesus is not on earth, you can't do the part 3 in that.

Does this mean what it says, or does it mean something else? Matth 24.30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

I think it means what it says. I think all of those could have happened already. And, if "this generation" does not mean the people that were with Jesus that day, it can mean the generation that sees those things, or the nation of Israel. I think there are 3 possible options in that. And because Jesus tells he doesn't know the day, the correct meaning is either the generation that sees the things, or it means the nation, as the original word can be translated to mean nation.

First day, day and night, light and dark, morning an evening, not some Cosmic radiation. Fourth day Sun and moon created. That is what it says. Does it mean what it says?

I think Bible means what it says.

The first (we have done this before- I thought we had) is a miserable excuse. Because Jesus is dead (you don't think he is in heaven wanting you to follow him?) you are excused from doing as he says? Are we then excused from doing what he had the followers do when he was on earth? Isn't it a way of making the Bible irrelevant where inconvenient? The same (and you are not the only one to try to wriggle and escape from something the Bible said would happen and didn't). And we did this before, too, and not knowing the day or hour does not mean you don't know the ballpark figure - their lifetimes - and the method: on the clouds with trumpets and drums and a description of what would happen. You have to argue - just as I said - that that the Bible says is not what it means. That is precicely what you did 'This actually means That'.

And the Bible means what it says? That daylight was before the sun was created? I know we have done this and you tried to say that day and night was a Cosmic light which is not what the Bible says.

Not only you are in denial about what the Bible says but in denial about what you said - it doesn't mean what it appears to say and then claim you say it means exactly what it says.

I'll say what I've said before, too. I an truly thankful I'm b not a Bible - believing Christian.