Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[1213]

Where does the Bible say 'You don't need to give your stuff to the poor and follow me after I'm dead"?

Probably in the same please where it says "you must give up all of your stuff".

I think it would be best to remain in what is actually said in the Bible. I think it is not the same as what you twist it to mean.

It is denial of everything that the Bible implies with the disciples, apostles, saints and preachers carrying on giving up everything and following Jesus like he was still alive, right? Don't you see that if Jesus' death abrogates all that, it's a waste of time you being a Christian at all?

I think it is good to not ignore every detail. Bible tells clearly what it means and it appears to me that you try to twist it to something else. In Biblical point of view being a Christian means one remains in word of Jesus. Replacing it with your opinion of what it actually means is not Christian.

But, this does not mean that it would not be good to give property for the poor. And it is clear from other teachings of Jesus that property should not be the most important thing for a person. However, Bible doesn't also tell that everyone must be poor. If people would live by what Jesus told, there would be no poor people.

You give yourself away. You interpret what the Bible says (day and night, morning and evening' iat Mean something else ( a cosmic light). Am I right or not that you not only interpret what the Bible says to suit yourself, but you make stuff up?

I don't think I am interpreting anything. Bible clearly tells that there was a light before the sun. And changes of that light caused day and night. Bible doesn't tell what that light was. And I only guess it could be the same that nowadays can be seen as the cosmic background radiation. People don't have to accept that theory. The light could be also something else.

[1213]

Then the idea of eternal torment is false.

Please explain why do you think so?

[POI]

Then the idea of eternal torment is false.

Please explain why do you think so?

Because if your awareness/consciousness is destroyed, then you cannot be tormented.

[Tulipbee]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #587]

Ahoy, TRANSPONDER, the cosmic inquirer navigating the seas of grace, belief, and works! Let's embark on a theological voyage in the tradition of Calvinism, where the gospel of Jesus Christ takes center stage.

In the grand theological ballroom, let's unfurl the sails of Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV): "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Here, the apostle Paul unveils the cosmic truth that salvation is a gift of God's grace through faith. It's not earned through our works, preventing any boasting in our own efforts. It's like a celestial dance where grace leads, faith follows, and works take a humble seat in the grand theater of salvation.

Now, in the ongoing discourse about the interpretation of biblical passages, let's remember that the Holy Scriptures are the compass guiding us. As we sail through the debates, Romans 3:23-24 (ESV) offers clarity: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

The cosmic narrative unfolds, acknowledging human fallibility and emphasizing that justification comes through God's grace as a gift. It's a divine redemption that surpasses our earthly debates and interpretations.

TRANSPONDER, let's set our course by the celestial truth of God's grace, recognizing the cosmic dance of salvation - where grace, faith, and the gift of redemption lead us on a journey that goes beyond our own works. Are you ready to sail into the depths of divine grace and explore the wonders of the gospel together?

[POI]

I was watching ESPN recently and a commercial came on, which answered my question. Is the answer B)? (i.e.)

https://heavenornot.net/

[TRANSPONDER]

Where does the Bible say 'You don't need to give your stuff to the poor and follow me after I'm dead"?

Probably in the same please where it says "you must give up all of your stuff".

I think it would be best to remain in what is actually said in the Bible. I think it is not the same as what you twist it to mean.

It is denial of everything that the Bible implies with the disciples, apostles, saints and preachers carrying on giving up everything and following Jesus like he was still alive, right? Don't you see that if Jesus' death abrogates all that, it's a waste of time you being a Christian at all?

I think it is good to not ignore every detail. Bible tells clearly what it means and it appears to me that you try to twist it to something else. In Biblical point of view being a Christian means one remains in word of Jesus. Replacing it with your opinion of what it actually means is not Christian.

But, this does not mean that it would not be good to give property for the poor. And it is clear from other teachings of Jesus that property should not be the most important thing for a person. However, Bible doesn't also tell that everyone must be poor. If people would live by what Jesus told, there would be no poor people.

You give yourself away. You interpret what the Bible says (day and night, morning and evening' iat Mean something else ( a cosmic light). Am I right or not that you not only interpret what the Bible says to suit yourself, but you make stuff up?

I don't think I am interpreting anything. Bible clearly tells that there was a light before the sun. And changes of that light caused day and night. Bible doesn't tell what that light was. And I only guess it could be the same that nowadays can be seen as the cosmic background radiation. People don't have to accept that theory. The light could be also something else.

But it doesn't. Ok not 'stuff' but 'give all you have to the poor'. Where does it say anywhere that no longer applies just because Jesus will be dead? I note the smiley. Fine. We all like a laugh. But was your remark intended as a quip or a serious point? Still to be fair, it is a point that to 'Follow Jesus' means something a bit different when Jesus was dead, but my point was valid - if those teachings don't apply after Jesus was dead, what need for Christianity at all?

It doesn't work just to 'go with what is said' if that means 'don't think about the implications,contradiction and claims that look wrong'. You Interpret yourself when it comes to daylight in Genesis. It says daylight, morning and evening. It denied a continuous light by what it said. Same with the guarantee given in the gospels. All the apologists say what it says isn't actually what it means. You only appeal to 'what it says' as a means of not looking at the implications, and the implications are that Jesus said to give away all your stuff and follow him in the sense of however that can be done, like joining his club.

It is you doing the twisting when you claim that 'Following Jesus'can't be done because he is dead. You Interpret that to mean 'remain in the word of Jesus That sounds like 'saying Lord, Lord, and never doing what he says. No, he's dead and that doesn't apply. Incidentally, on't you think Jesus is alive in heaven? I think he's dead but do you?

Of course you doing just what I said 'Making stuff up'. You simply invent a cosmic light that flicks on and off every 24 hours like daylight and night and actual daylight and night happened when God made the sun and moon, which isn't true unless you deny science. But carry on denying everything and interpreting what the Bible says while accusing me to 'twisting' it and making stuff up. Trust me, you are far from the only one. Bible apologists do it all the time.

But again I appreciate your regular posting and I appreciate the good Bad Example you give of how Bible apologetics fiddles, wangles and interprets and then accuses the other side of doing it.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #587]

Ahoy, TRANSPONDER, the cosmic inquirer navigating the seas of grace, belief, and works! Let's embark on a theological voyage in the tradition of Calvinism, where the gospel of Jesus Christ takes center stage.

In the grand theological ballroom, let's unfurl the sails of Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV): "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Here, the apostle Paul unveils the cosmic truth that salvation is a gift of God's grace through faith. It's not earned through our works, preventing any boasting in our own efforts. It's like a celestial dance where grace leads, faith follows, and works take a humble seat in the grand theater of salvation.

Now, in the ongoing discourse about the interpretation of biblical passages, let's remember that the Holy Scriptures are the compass guiding us. As we sail through the debates, Romans 3:23-24 (ESV) offers clarity: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

The cosmic narrative unfolds, acknowledging human fallibility and emphasizing that justification comes through God's grace as a gift. It's a divine redemption that surpasses our earthly debates and interpretations.

TRANSPONDER, let's set our course by the celestial truth of God's grace, recognizing the cosmic dance of salvation - where grace, faith, and the gift of redemption lead us on a journey that goes beyond our own works. Are you ready to sail into the depths of divine grace and explore the wonders of the gospel together?

Nah. Like Beethoven I collaborate with no-one. I have my own take on the Gospels and that I pursue in my own way. I invite question, disagreement and and doubt, but I generally ignore theology or preaching.

I agree that grace (through Faith) is the ticket to salvation and Works is only important because sinning (as Paul argues) can lose that Grace. So you go go ahead my friend and say (post) what you are moved to say. I remain a free apologetics agent who like a mercenary for the mundane, will choose which battles to fight.

[Tulipbee]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #597]

Ah, TRANSPONDER, the lone maestro of theological musings, I respect your independent pursuit of truth and your unique symphony in the grand composition of gospel understanding.

Your perspective on grace, faith, and works resonates with the melodies of Ephesians 2:8-9, emphasizing the divine gift of salvation through faith, with works taking a humble place in the cosmic dance. It's a harmonious accord with the celestial truth that surpasses theological debates and interpretations.

I appreciate your openness to questions, disagreement, and doubt, fostering a space for diverse reflections on the Gospel. Your comparison to Beethoven, collaborating with no one, speaks to the individual journey each believer undertakes in exploring the depths of faith.

As we navigate the seas of theological discourse, may your apologetic pursuits be guided by the compass of divine grace, and may your battles be chosen with wisdom and discernment. Whether sailing in unison or charting your course alone, the cosmic dance of salvation continues, inviting all seekers to partake in the wonders of God's grace.

May your theological journey be filled with the melodies of understanding and the profound echoes of the gospel's timeless truth. Sail on, my friend, in the vast expanse of divine exploration.

[TRANSPONDER]

Thank you. I look forward to your continued poetic posting, some of which i may set to music, and I hope that many more may come to post here like you (I need the likes) and are not put off nor disheartened by the towsing they get from the spawn of Satan that infests the place. As you me, Theology s for the believers ...mostly, and we all have to find our way to 'Our Truth'.

[1213]

But it doesn't. Ok not 'stuff' but 'give all you have to the poor'. Where does it say anywhere that no longer applies just because Jesus will be dead? I note the smiley. Fine. We all like a laugh. But was your remark intended as a quip or a serious point? Still to be fair, it is a point that to 'Follow Jesus' means something a bit different when Jesus was dead, but my point was valid - if those teachings don't apply after Jesus was dead, what need for Christianity at all?

Yes, it was meant to be also a serious point. And the point is, it doesn't say what you say it says, if we are accurate and literal. To understand Bible correctly, one must take it as whole, not just cut parts to fit to ones own desires. In this case Jesus said:

"If you desire to be perfect, go sell your property and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven; and come, follow Me."
Matt. 19:21

If you are a rich person and want to be perfect, he should do so. However, the part "and come, follow me", is not possible at the moment. This does not mean person can't be a disciple of Jesus (=Christian), because a disciples is a person who remains in the word of Jesus.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

So, what it means in this case to remain in the word of Jesus? I think the scripture you take is for the case of a rich person, but what about those who don't have so much that they could call themselves rich? I think first we should notice this:

Do not provide gold, nor silver, nor copper in your belts, nor provision bag for the road, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staves. For the worker is worthy of his food.
Matt. 10:9-10

At the beginning disciples were expected to renounce everything and go do the job. However, in the later part of the journey it was said:

And He said to them, When I sent you without a purse, or a wallet, or sandals, did you lack anything? And they said, Nothing. Then He said to them, But now, the one having a purse, let him take it ; likewise also a wallet. And the one not having, let him sell his garment, and let him buy a sword.
Luke 22:35-36

Does that mean his disciples got the permission to have stuff? I think so. But, I think you have still valid point. Disciples should be ready to give up everything they have and property or money should not rule them, because:

Do not treasure up for you treasures on the earth, where moth and rust cause to vanish, and where thieves dig through and steal. But treasure up for you treasures in Heaven, where neither moth nor rust cause to vanish, and where thieves do not dig through and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. The lamp of the body is the eye. Then if your eye is sound, all your body is light. But if your eye is evil, all your body is dark. If, then, the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! No one is able to serve two lords; for either he will hate the one, and he will love the other; or he will cleave to the one, and he will despise the other. You are not able to serve God and wealth.
Matt. 6:19-24

And answering, he said to them, The one that has two tunics, let him give to him that has not. And the one that has foods, let him do the same.
Luke 3:11

So, if you want Christians to be charitable, I think you should rather use Matt. 6:19-24 and Luke 3:11. And as you can see, it does not mean that person can't have anything. It means for example, you can't watch your neighbor being without food while you have food to share for many people. If people would go by those teachings, I don't think there would be any poor people, because everyone would have enough food and clothes.

It doesn't work just to 'go with what is said' if that means 'don't think about the implications,contradiction and claims that look wrong'. You Interpret yourself when it comes to daylight in Genesis. It says daylight, morning and evening. It denied a continuous light by what it said. Same with the guarantee given in the gospels. All the apologists say what it says isn't actually what it means.

Isn't sun also a continuous light? Why could the other light cause day and night the same way sun does?

It is only contradictory and wrong, if we make stupid interpretations of it. Do you have some good reason why Bible should be interpreted in irrational way, to make it look wrong?

But again I appreciate your regular posting

Thanks.