One of the Best Arguments for God?

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One of the Best Arguments for God?

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Post by POI »

SiNcE_1985 wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2024 6:55 pm we should focus the fine-tuning.
Both theists and skeptics will state this is one of the best arguments a believer has. But, is it sound reasoning? Below are some points to consider before continuing:

The fine-tuning argument for God is often considered to fail because it relies on the assumption that the extreme improbability of our universe's life-permitting conditions points to a designer, but this can be countered by the concept of a multiverse, where our observable universe could simply be one of many with vastly different conditions, making our seemingly fine-tuned universe less surprising statistically; additionally, critics argue that even if fine-tuning is real, it doesn't necessarily point to a God with the characteristics typically described in religions, and the argument can be seen as a "God of the gaps" fallacy, where unexplained phenomena are attributed to divine intervention.

Below are some key points against the fine-tuning argument:

The Multiverse Hypothesis: If there are an infinite or very large number of universes with different physical constants, then it becomes less improbable that we would happen to be in one where life is possible, even if the odds of that specific set of constants are very low in any single universe.

Anthropic Principle:This principle states that we can only observe a universe capable of supporting life because if it weren't, we wouldn't be here to observe it, which can partially explain the fine-tuning observation without invoking a deity.

Lack of Specificity: Even if fine-tuning is real, it doesn't necessarily point to a specific God with the characteristics described in religions, as the "designer" could be a very different entity.

The "God of the Gaps" Fallacy: Critics argue that invoking God to explain unexplained phenomena like fine-tuning is a form of this fallacy, where God is used to fill in gaps in our scientific understanding that may be explained by future discoveries.

Notable... "irreducible complexity" focuses on the structure of a system, while "fine-tuning" focuses on the specific values within a system that make it functional. But I feel it is still worth adding:

Irreducible complexity: Theists will argue for it. It is a system that is made up of multiple parts that work together, and where removing any one part causes the system to stop working. However, the Dover trial of the mid 2000's dispelled this assumption.

*************************

For Debate: Above provides some point(s) which would be a (cause for pause) in theists continuing to push for this argument. Why is the fine-tuning argument a good argument for a God or god(s) existence?
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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

Post #61

Post by Purple Knight »

benchwarmer wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 3:34 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 2:21 pmThe first person who believed had to be born believing.
I disagree. Like I said, we are born with the capacity to form beliefs. We can't believe in things we have no concept of.

Do you believe in blargflappers?
No, but if I did I would have either had to:
1) be born believing
2) made it up
3) been told by somebody else
4) seen it for myself

Because we are atheists let's rule out #4, because we agree. #3 too; I'm talking about the first person to believe. Now we rule out #2 because I'm not insane and I don't believe my own lies.
benchwarmer wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 3:34 pmOr they came up with it all on their own.

Example:
"Ohhh, what was that big flash in the sky followed by a big boom?"

"Hmmm, it must have been something that did that...."

"Seems like some sort of being must be doing it..."

"I'll call it 'Zeus'!"

"Hey Fred! Did you see that big flash in the sky! Zeus sure was busy last night right?"

Now this person becomes the 'liar' or perhaps better called the 'guesser and declaring it to be true person' for others.
So at this step, why does the first believer (who is not the leap-maker, because he well knows he might be wrong) start believing it as fact, not just theory? Over time it might slide from working theory into accepted fact. But by the time you've got texts and stories, somebody is very deliberately making things up, and the people accepting them know this unless they want to believe. They know that nobody sees Zeus. The stories talk about what happens up on Olympus and nobody has ever been up there.

A cat doesn't know what a mouse is before it sees one. But when it does, the silhouette inside the cat gets filled-in.

I'm not saying people are born believing specific facts. I'm saying they have a god-shaped hole that gets filled-in with the first thing they hear about gods. This isn't a backpedal. People are born believing... in something. They just don't know what it is until that hole gets filled-in. But before they get that hole filled, they have a basic silhouette of what a god is and they believe in some kind of god, it's just not well-formed.

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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

Post #62

Post by 1213 »

benchwarmer wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 10:27 am
1213 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 12:47 am
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2024 8:13 am I think readers will notice your lack of answering either way and see you've realized the problem with your line of argument.
What problem?
See below.
1213 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 12:47 am
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2024 8:13 am Since you answered 'yes' meaning that you have a belief or a disbelief, please explain to us what a flapgarblot is. Also please explain how you knew that when you were born.
I don't know what a flapgarblot is.
Exactly. Thank you.
Please explain why is that the problem?
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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

Post #63

Post by benchwarmer »

1213 wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:31 am
benchwarmer wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 10:27 am
1213 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 12:47 am
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2024 8:13 am I think readers will notice your lack of answering either way and see you've realized the problem with your line of argument.
What problem?
See below.
1213 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 12:47 am
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2024 8:13 am Since you answered 'yes' meaning that you have a belief or a disbelief, please explain to us what a flapgarblot is. Also please explain how you knew that when you were born.
I don't know what a flapgarblot is.
Exactly. Thank you.
Please explain why is that the problem?
I would think that's obvious. You can't have a belief (or disbelief) in something that you don't even know what it is.

You didn't even know who or what a god (or in your case a particular one, namely God) was until someone told you about it or perhaps you encountered it for the first time.

You can claim you always believed until you are blue in the face, but I hardly think that will convince anyone that doesn't already believe.

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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

Post #64

Post by 1213 »

benchwarmer wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 6:49 am ...You didn't even know who or what a god (or in your case a particular one, namely God) was ...
Obviously I don't claim I believed in God without knowing in any way God.

How do you know I didn't know God right from the beginning?
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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

Post #65

Post by Clownboat »

1213 wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2024 12:13 am
benchwarmer wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 6:49 am ...You didn't even know who or what a god (or in your case a particular one, namely God) was ...
Obviously I don't claim I believed in God without knowing in any way God.

How do you know I didn't know God right from the beginning?
Do you claim that you knew the Christian god concept from the moment of your birth or do you not? That is how we can possibly know.
Until you clarify, we can only assume you were like all other newborns, but feel free to argue that you were unlike all others if you would like.
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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

Post #66

Post by 1213 »

Clownboat wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2024 3:06 pm ...
Do you claim that you knew the Christian god concept from the moment of your birth or do you not? ...
In some level I think I knew, otherwise I could not believe.
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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

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Post by Athetotheist »

Clownboat wrote:Do you claim that you knew the Christian god concept from the moment of your birth or do you not? ...
1213 wrote:In some level I think I knew, otherwise I could not believe.
Then how have so many always believed in other gods? Your argument makes their belief just as valid.
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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

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Post by 1213 »

Athetotheist wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2024 10:00 am
Clownboat wrote:Do you claim that you knew the Christian god concept from the moment of your birth or do you not? ...
1213 wrote:In some level I think I knew, otherwise I could not believe.
Then how have so many always believed in other gods? Your argument makes their belief just as valid.
So, also other people claim they have always believed in God?

If that is what they say, I have no problem with it. But, obviously belief in God on its own does not necessary mean one believes in true God.
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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

Post #69

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to 1213 in post #68]
So, also other people claim they have always believed in God?

If that is what they say, I have no problem with it. But, obviously belief in God on its own does not necessary mean one believes in true God.
And that, also, goes as much for you as it does for them.
"The religious idea of God cannot do full duty for the metaphysical infinity."
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