Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[Mae von H]

For those of us who have been walking with Jesus decades and learning over the decades, one sees that some have progressed farther and therefore understand better than others. And it does happen that some digress and understand less with time. And some refuse to learn but decided what they want to believe and wild horses cannot get them to adjust to any new understanding. This is how people are and it is not limited to christianity. Ask 10 doctors how to treat xyzback pain and you will get a variety of opinions. Does that mean there is no back and no pain? People disagree all the time. People with extensive education and understanding disagree with each other all the time. Why is it only in Christianity is this supposed to show that there is no God?

Because the stakes are much higher. If you are wrong, you are eternally condemned.

Your answer makes no sense. People disagree all the time about things they’ve learned. Experts disagree with other experts. Doesn’t mean the matter they disagree on doesn’t exist. When Christians disagree, it doesn’t mean there’s no God.

[POI]

For those of us who have been walking with Jesus decades and learning over the decades, one sees that some have progressed farther and therefore understand better than others. And it does happen that some digress and understand less with time. And some refuse to learn but decided what they want to believe and wild horses cannot get them to adjust to any new understanding. This is how people are and it is not limited to christianity. Ask 10 doctors how to treat xyzback pain and you will get a variety of opinions. Does that mean there is no back and no pain? People disagree all the time. People with extensive education and understanding disagree with each other all the time. Why is it only in Christianity is this supposed to show that there is no God?

Because the stakes are much higher. If you are wrong, you are eternally condemned.

Your answer makes no sense. People disagree all the time about things they’ve learned. Experts disagree with other experts. Doesn’t mean the matter they disagree on doesn’t exist. When Christians disagree, it doesn’t mean there’s no God.

My answer makes perfect sense. If God realizes that his followers need to follow his chosen path for salvation, the least he can do is provide the proper instructions for that path coherently. We are not speaking about worldly mundane issues here, as you mentioned above. We are instead speaking about achieving eternal bliss, verses eternal condemnation. How is it achieved? In my questioning, you selected answer B). And yet, the Bible lists other ways to achieve the same goal as well. God is the direct purveyor of confusion. As I've told others, I do not blame the follower, I blame the writer.

[Mae von H]

For those of us who have been walking with Jesus decades and learning over the decades, one sees that some have progressed farther and therefore understand better than others. And it does happen that some digress and understand less with time. And some refuse to learn but decided what they want to believe and wild horses cannot get them to adjust to any new understanding. This is how people are and it is not limited to christianity. Ask 10 doctors how to treat xyzback pain and you will get a variety of opinions. Does that mean there is no back and no pain? People disagree all the time. People with extensive education and understanding disagree with each other all the time. Why is it only in Christianity is this supposed to show that there is no God?

Because the stakes are much higher. If you are wrong, you are eternally condemned.

Your answer makes no sense. People disagree all the time about things they’ve learned. Experts disagree with other experts. Doesn’t mean the matter they disagree on doesn’t exist. When Christians disagree, it doesn’t mean there’s no God.

My answer makes perfect sense. If God realizes that his followers need to follow his chosen path for salvation, the least he can do is provide the proper instructions for that path coherently. We are not speaking about worldly mundane issues here, as you mentioned above. We are instead speaking about achieving eternal bliss, verses eternal condemnation. How is it achieved? In my questioning, you selected answer B). And yet, the Bible lists other ways to achieve the same goal as well. God is the direct purveyor of confusion. As I've told others, I do not blame the follower, I blame the writer.

First, Heaven or eternal bliss when you die is not His goal. For those who’ve walked with Him into maturity, it’s also not the goal.

But why do you think many christians disagree on salvation? It’s the one thing we do agree on, that it’s through the shed blood of Christ. And there are different callings from God on different people so the paths are as different as the men in the Bible are described as…poor…rich….penniless….kings….slaves….rulers…a variety. And who do you think the way isn’t clear?

But you’re right, your answer does make sense now.

[POI]

why do you think many christians disagree on salvation?

I already answered here. God is the purveyor of confusion. The answer should be simple, and all you earnest followers do not agree. (i.e.):

How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process?

Answer key:

A) All go because of his grace
B) Faith/belief
C) Works
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 462: 1213 answer F)
Post 564: Mea Von H answer B)

[Mae von H]

why do you think many christians disagree on salvation?

I already answered here. God is the purveyor of confusion. The answer should be simple, and all you earnest followers do not agree. (i.e.):

The answer is simple, said in one sentence, and we all agree. God is not the purveyor confusion. Sounds more like you’re looking for an excuse, frankly speaking.

Jesus said, “repent (of your sins) and believe (surrender.)

How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process?

Answer key:

A) All go because of his grace
B) Faith/belief
C) Works
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 462: 1213 answer F)
Post 564: Mea Von H answer B)

I did not answer B. You are asking for an answer that divides up a lifetime commitment into pieces that, in your mind, don’t connect. Your question is like: how does one maintain a successful marriage

a. have children
b. make breakfast every Saturday
c. trust your partner
d. nothing, it will either happen or it doesn’t
e. bring home enough money
f. take frequent vacations

If a man wants Heaven just so he won’t suffer, he’ll never make it. If he is only interested in his well-being, he won’t make it. Just because the goal is Heaven, doesn’t make the wish acceptable.

But if he’s willing to admit he’s a selfish being and desires and purposes to repent of said self focus, there’s hope. But he must surrender the goal of avoiding suffering.

You want the criteria for Gods family? Love others as much and no less than you love yourself demonstrated by continual choices to do and say that which honors them. Do you meet the standard? The others, btw, are the judges, not you. Do others say you have selflessly loved them as much as you loved your own comfort and pleasure?

[POI]

Your question is like: how does one maintain a successful marriage

The criterion for a successful marriage differs from relationship to relationship. My only concern, in this topic, is the one you might achieve with the Bible God.

But if he’s willing to admit he’s a selfish being and desires and purposes to repent of said self focus, there’s hope. But he must surrender the goal of avoiding suffering.

Even though it was God who created the scenario of eternal condemnation for the unchosen, and then presented it to humans as a threat? Okay.

You want the criteria for Gods family? Love others as much and no less than you love yourself demonstrated by continual choices to do and say that which honors them.

So, your answer is now C). The plot thickens...

Do you meet the standard?

Depends... Are we talking about all humans on the planet, or just my immediate family and close friends, or what? I doubt anyone loves everyone this much?

[Mae von H]

Your question is like: how does one maintain a successful marriage

The criterion for a successful marriage differs from relationship to relationship. My only concern, in this topic, is the one you might achieve with the Bible God.

If that were true there’d be no books on the subject. And it’s not true. And in fact, the necessary elements for any successful relationship are the same. One must have trust, loyalty, and other virtues. There are only slightly less important elements.

But if he’s willing to admit he’s a selfish being and desires and purposes to repent of said self focus, there’s hope. But he must surrender the goal of avoiding suffering.

Even though it was God who created the scenario of eternal condemnation for the unchosen, and then presented it to humans as a threat? Okay.

Incorrect. Hell was specifically prepared for the Devil and his hoard and it says so. You really need to restrain your choice of wording (if not thinking) to the truth or you’ll never find it. If you allow you to
lie to you, you will never find Truth.

But honestly, would you invite someone to
live with you who continually finds fault and accuses you of evil? Would you?

You want the criteria for Gods family? Love others as much and no less than you love yourself demonstrated by continual choices to do and say that which honors them.

So, your answer is now C). The plot thickens...

Sigh!! I told you the answer is MORE THAN ONE but you insist on your division. If I may be so bold, it’s now no wonder to me that you never hear from God on the questions you have.

Since I know Him so well, I’ll explain His kindness to you in NOT answering. I can back it all up in scripture but it makes this longer and I don’t think it would impress you anyway.

God does not answer inquiries from those who are not prepared to alter their lives accordingly because if they are given more understanding, more will be required of them. It is love for you that restrains Him, waiting for you to change your heart. As long as you put yourself in the superior place of allowing yourself to judge Him, not wanting to understand but to judge, you will not be able to receive any answer. You’ve already decided He’s bad. Judgement already done. Why are you even asking? (kindly but honestly asked….you needn’t answer )

Do you meet the standard?

Depends... Are we talking about all humans on the planet, or just my immediate family and close friends, or what? I doubt anyone loves everyone this much?

All humans who have been on the other end of your choices and know it. And yes, it’s doubtful anyone but Jesus did this. It is nevertheless the standard. He wants loving kind people in his dwelling. One can understand this.

Please understand that I think well of you and feel an affection for you seeing you as a more worthy atheist opponent. I’m not surprised you’re of my generation. We weren’t raised in a society that approved of the low going to the ad hominem response when losing. Now it’s standard for those who did not train themselves to think.

[POI]

Mae If that were true there’d be no books on the subject. And it’s not true. And in fact, the necessary elements for any successful relationship are the same. One must have trust, loyalty, and other virtues. There are only slightly less important elements.

POI And yet, earnest, educated, and devout believers do not agree for the stated path to salvation. Many of the interlocutors, who have exchanged in this thread, provide a differing path, verses you. I reckon all of them, as well as you, have read the Bible, have studied it, and all have a case to make, which differs from yours.

Mae Incorrect. Hell was specifically prepared for the Devil and his hoard and it says so.

POI Unchosen humans do not go to hell?

Mae But honestly, would you invite someone to live with you who continually finds fault and accuses you of evil? Would you?

POI I'm not accusing him of "evil". I'm accusing your believed upon God of being the purveyor of confusion and illogical.

What about the ones who do not believe he exists or never heard of him? Do they get a free pass? Which would be answer A)?

Mae I told you the answer is MORE THAN ONE

POI The point of this thread is to demonstrate that none of you fine earnest believers can agree. And you don't. I'm sure you all have studied extensively and are completely earnest in your convictions. And yet, some of you HAVE to be dead wrong. If you are dead wrong, then is God going to pardon those folks anyways? If so, then maybe the answer is A) unconditional/conditional grace.

Mae but you insist on your division. If I may be so bold, it’s now no wonder to me that you never hear from God on the questions you have.

POI You misunderstand completely. Allow me to clarify. You can give me an entire scenario, which can be summed up into one phrase or word. Case/point, you could confide in me and tell me your friend did this, that, and the other thing, and I could respond with, sounds like she's (jealous) of you. Even though you spent an hour telling me your anecdotal story, the conclusion can still be summed up in one word, jealousy.

Mae yes, it’s doubtful anyone but Jesus did this.

POI Then it is an unattainable criterion. Then I guess the answer is now E)

[1213]

...All earnest believers, you included, cannot even agree on the simple question regarding what option achieves your salvation? ...

If people don't agree, it does not mean that the message is not clear. I think Bible is very clear. The problem is that some people just don't want to accept what it says.

[Mae von H]

Mae If that were true there’d be no books on the subject. And it’s not true. And in fact, the necessary elements for any successful relationship are the same. One must have trust, loyalty, and other virtues. There are only slightly less important elements.

POI And yet, earnest, educated, and devout believers do not agree for the stated path to salvation. Many of the interlocutors, who have exchanged in this thread, provide a differing path, verses you. I reckon all of them, as well as you, have read the Bible, have studied it, and all have a case to make, which differs from yours.

Untrue. We are saved through the blood of Jesus. This is universal.

But why do you think that because people disagree that then their source authors confusion? Show 30 doctors a case study and you will NOT get the same answer from all. Is medical school the author of confusion? It seems like you just want to accuse God of wrong again. It’s no wonder He doesn’t answer you. I don’t answer people who’ve wrongly accused me of evil either. That this is your motive is made more clear by you refusing to admit that people can be mistaken. You blame God. I guess when less than 100% of students pass an exam it’s entirely the teacher’s fault right??

Mae Incorrect. Hell was specifically prepared for the Devil and his hoard and it says so.

POI Unchosen humans do not go to hell?

That theology is a lie and promotes an evil attributed to Him. It’s His will that all are saved and He said so. But your take on that evil theology is correct. The being it describes is evil.

Mae But honestly, would you invite someone to live with you who continually finds fault and accuses you of evil? Would you?

POI I'm not accusing him of "evil". I'm accusing your believed upon God of being the purveyor of confusion and illogical.

You certainly are. No blame is laid on people in your view. None at all,

What about the ones who do not believe he exists or never heard of him? Do they get a free pass? Which would be answer A)?

There is a moral law inside each man. All will be judged by how they lived up to the moral law within. What could be more fair?

Mae I told you the answer is MORE THAN ONE

POI The point of this thread is to demonstrate that none of you fine earnest believers can agree. And you don't. I'm sure you all have studied extensively and are completely earnest in your convictions. And yet, some of you HAVE to be dead wrong. If you are dead wrong, then is God going to pardon those folks anyways? If so, then maybe the answer is A) unconditional/conditional grace.

Mae but you insist on your division. If I may be so bold, it’s now no wonder to me that you never hear from God on the questions you have.

POI You misunderstand completely. Allow me to clarify. You can give me an entire scenario, which can be summed up into one phrase or word. Case/point, you could confide in me and tell me your friend did this, that, and the other thing, and I could respond with, sounds like she's (jealous) of you. Even though you spent an hour telling me your anecdotal story, the conclusion can still be summed up in one word, jealousy.

Mae yes, it’s doubtful anyone but Jesus did this.

POI Then it is an unattainable criterion. Then I guess the answer is now E)

This clearly demonstrates a desire to attack God personally. Get 100 engineers in a room to discuss how to accomplish something a d you think all 100 will agree? Are schools of engineering authoring confusion? If some students fail an exam, did the teacher fail and the students are innocent? If 100 doctors don’t agree on a therapy, did med school breed confusion?

How come the idea of having differing opinions and understanding in different people eludes you? How come you demand a uniformity among billions of christians you don’t demand in your doctor?