What are the alternatives to evidence?

[Flail]

Question for debate:

If your 'God' and your 'God beliefs' contain no amount of credible, verifiable evidence, is there anything left but conjecture and speculation upon which to stake your truth claims?

Argument and opinion:
Some here claim to profess 'modern Christianity' as a more palatable, intelligent version of fundamental Christian beliefs. Refreshingly they admit to having no proofs, no objective, verifiable evidence to support their beliefs.

I contend,however, that once a believer abandons the ground of fundamentalism from which their original beliefs arose, that they have necessarily entered into the realm of abject speculation and conjecture. At least the 'fundamentalist' has a Holy Book from a 'God' to follow. At least a fundamentalist Christian can point to his Bible. But once a believer begins to pick and choose from Biblical text or to find 'truths' on his own, has he not entered upon the flimsy ground of mere possibility?

I have no problem with modern interpretations of Christianity so long as adherents admit the speculative nature of their conjured beliefs and refrain from supporting with money and ritual practices the fundamentalist Christian ideas and institutions they profess to reject. In particular IMO, the 'modern Christian' should clarify their non-support for the fundamentalist judgment that others in differing traditions are 'hell bound' and evil.

[cnorman18]

If you want to find really freethinking Christians, you'd probably have to go across the street to the Episcopalians. They could even drink in front of each other.

Interesting. My childhood was spent in Episcopalian churches until middle school, after which I went to Methodist churches for awhile. I always found the Methodist ones to be considerably more liberal.

Did you grow up in Austin? The Baptists are liberal in Austin.

[JoeyKnothead]

What are the alternatives to evidence?

Conjecture.

[ChaosBorders]

If you want to find really freethinking Christians, you'd probably have to go across the street to the Episcopalians. They could even drink in front of each other.

Interesting. My childhood was spent in Episcopalian churches until middle school, after which I went to Methodist churches for awhile. I always found the Methodist ones to be considerably more liberal.

Did you grow up in Austin? The Baptists are liberal in Austin.

Born in Austin, but raised in Hays county until high school. You're right though that a lot of the Baptists are liberal here. I doubt I would enjoy going to Baptist churches if they weren't.

[Zzyzx]

.

What are the alternatives to evidence?

Conjecture.

I agree and add: imagination, emotion, fantasy, fiction, belief, faith

[Stooti]

.

If we have nothing to we can hold on to, we hold on to one thing.

I do not understand, "if we have nothing we can hold onto". We all have real life to "hang onto". We have the ability to live to the highest of standards that we set for ourselves. We can do our utmost to avoid harming others, and to help those in dire straits. We can endeavor to make the world a better place. We can develop satisfying and fulfilling relationships.

What else is needed to "hang onto"?

That is why religion is also known as faith. The hope that rests in God's hands is a hope that is among the strongest in the world.

Would it not be prudent to WORK toward what one wants rather than "hope" for it? Why assume that an invisible, undetectable, proposed "god" will grant wishes or requests (or actually be there to hang onto, other than in our mind)?

Just today in Chapel, we had a visitor. This man had an accident at the age of 5, having his arm severed off. He had it put back on, but, I tell you from eyewitness account, this arm ain't pretty. For the next 10 years off his life he went through many hardships, trying to fit in. He talked about how he went down a path trying to fit in, involving doing stupid things to try and impress his friends, drugs and overall craziness.
He then went on to say that at night, he still hadn't satisfied his need to be 'normal'. You could say this was the image of a man, who had 'nothing to hang on to'. And then of course he 'finds God', fufilling his need to be 'normal'. This is more or less what I ment.

If the situation is terrible, there is no hope of recovery or things turning for the better, you can pray to God to 'help' make things better. It's not like God will just make things better, you have to try, but He will be there with you - to help you.

[Stooti]

.

If we have nothing to we can hold on to, we hold on to one thing.

I do not understand, "if we have nothing we can hold onto". We all have real life to "hang onto". We have the ability to live to the highest of standards that we set for ourselves. We can do our utmost to avoid harming others, and to help those in dire straits. We can endeavor to make the world a better place. We can develop satisfying and fulfilling relationships.

What else is needed to "hang onto"?

That is why religion is also known as faith. The hope that rests in God's hands is a hope that is among the strongest in the world.

Would it not be prudent to WORK toward what one wants rather than "hope" for it? Why assume that an invisible, undetectable, proposed "god" will grant wishes or requests (or actually be there to hang onto, other than in our mind)?

Just today in Chapel we had a visitor. This man at the age of 5 lost part of his arm in a lawnmower accident. They managed to re-attach it to the remaining part of his arm, but I can tell you from eyewitness account it is not pretty. He is missing a finger, his hand seems to be mangled and maybe even put on backwards. For the next 18 years he attempted to fit in - he was seen as a freak everywhere he went and all he wanted was to be normal. He always did stupid things to try and impress his friends, he was sexually abused and took drugs often.
He went on to say that even with all of this, he still felt his need to be normal was not satisfied, not complete. You could say this is the image of a man who has nothing to hand on to. He then met some Christians who helped him to 'connect with God' and he satisfied his need to be normal.

If the situations is terrible with no hope of recovery, what can you turn to? In a situation where you would need a 'miracle'. The idea is not that God does, but God helps. If you pray to God or Jesus or a Saint and your problems are resolved, then you are likely to credit God for the success. But then if everything goes wrong and fails, you would not credit God for the failure.

Placing your hope in God is placing hope in luck and placebo.
And sometimes is actually works.

[Flail]

.

If we have nothing to we can hold on to, we hold on to one thing.

I do not understand, "if we have nothing we can hold onto". We all have real life to "hang onto". We have the ability to live to the highest of standards that we set for ourselves. We can do our utmost to avoid harming others, and to help those in dire straits. We can endeavor to make the world a better place. We can develop satisfying and fulfilling relationships.

What else is needed to "hang onto"?

That is why religion is also known as faith. The hope that rests in God's hands is a hope that is among the strongest in the world.

Would it not be prudent to WORK toward what one wants rather than "hope" for it? Why assume that an invisible, undetectable, proposed "god" will grant wishes or requests (or actually be there to hang onto, other than in our mind)?

Just today in Chapel we had a visitor. This man at the age of 5 lost part of his arm in a lawnmower accident. They managed to re-attach it to the remaining part of his arm, but I can tell you from eyewitness account it is not pretty. He is missing a finger, his hand seems to be mangled and maybe even put on backwards. For the next 18 years he attempted to fit in - he was seen as a freak everywhere he went and all he wanted was to be normal. He always did stupid things to try and impress his friends, he was sexually abused and took drugs often.
He went on to say that even with all of this, he still felt his need to be normal was not satisfied, not complete. You could say this is the image of a man who has nothing to hand on to. He then met some Christians who helped him to 'connect with God' and he satisfied his need to be normal.

If the situations is terrible with no hope of recovery, what can you turn to? In a situation where you would need a 'miracle'. The idea is not that God does, but God helps. If you pray to God or Jesus or a Saint and your problems are resolved, then you are likely to credit God for the success. But then if everything goes wrong and fails, you would not credit God for the failure.

Placing your hope in God is placing hope in luck and placebo.
And sometimes is actually works.

I would argue that it was the 'people' he found who happened to be Christian, that provided the help. In different circumstances, he may have found caring Muslims, Jews or atheists to connect with him. The evidence lies with the people, not with a 'God'. If we would all turn away from religion and toward each other, just think of the time and resources then available world wide for love and actual assistance. If only on one Sunday a month, people around the world would devote the time and money they give to church and rituals, to assisting the needy instead, how much good could be accomplished and how much suffering abated.

[Zzyzx]

.

If the situations is terrible with no hope of recovery, what can you turn to?

Those who consider themselves defective or disadvantaged in some way can "turn to god". Others rely upon themselves or upon friends.

Having a physical defect can be reason enough for a person to feel "not normal" or outcast or whatever. Others with similar "defects" consider themselves very "normal" and not "defective" (and thus no need to "turn to god" for consolation).

[Stooti]

.

If the situations is terrible with no hope of recovery, what can you turn to?

Those who consider themselves defective or disadvantaged in some way can "turn to god". Others rely upon themselves or upon friends.

Having a physical defect can be reason enough for a person to feel "not normal" or outcast or whatever. Others with similar "defects" consider themselves very "normal" and not "defective" (and thus no need to "turn to god" for consolation).

Exactly, so those who don't turn to a God or Gods aren't likely to say anything relating to this subject, whereas people who have turned to God and have "had their problems solved" would.

Flail

Yes I would agree, but would the person in that situation say that? We can't control how they interperet happenings.

[Flail]

.

If the situations is terrible with no hope of recovery, what can you turn to?

Those who consider themselves defective or disadvantaged in some way can "turn to god". Others rely upon themselves or upon friends.

Having a physical defect can be reason enough for a person to feel "not normal" or outcast or whatever. Others with similar "defects" consider themselves very "normal" and not "defective" (and thus no need to "turn to god" for consolation).

Exactly, so those who don't turn to a God or Gods aren't likely to say anything relating to this subject, whereas people who have turned to God and have "had their problems solved" would.

Flail

Yes I would agree, but would the person in that situation say that? We can't control how they interperet happenings.

We cannot control subjective interpretation, but we can argue it's 'logic' in debate. IMO, when one attributes their blessings to a particular Christian 'God', while simultaneously disqualifying Muslims(for instance) from those blessings, they have not only become illogical but divisive and potentially dangerous.