Liberal Christians only believe some "fundamentalism?

[AlAyeti]

There are now political Christians wanting to "re-claim" Christianity from whatever the "Right" is, or has done to it. Claiming that their way of Christianity is more like what Jesus would want.

But many of these Liberal positions hold to funadamentalism on the poor, the needy and anti-war and violence, but oppose Biblical truth on many other issues.

Why do Liberal Christians deny the truths of the New Testament on marriage and children as defined by Jesus himself?

Liberals will teach about condom usage but decry the Biblical truth about abstaining from sex until marriage as something ignorant or intolerant?

Why are not Liberal Christians funding missionaries to go to Muslim and other countries to spread the Gospel exactly the way Jesus described and exactly the way it is presented in the Gospels?

How can Liberal Christians support a womans right to kill her unborn child and encourage a woman to go and do it, while at the same time, denying the same rights of choice on the matter be given equal recognition to the father of the child?

How and why can Liberal Christians call themselves Christians while only preaching and teaching some immutable Christian positions and not all?

[redstang281]

Matthew 5:13-16 - "You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trodden under foot by men. "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

redstang,

I guess I'm just FINISHED being a "Christian". I could remain confused and bitter about the Bible, what it means and the various interpretations so many have thrown out over the years, but I can't go there anymore.

I don't think all of the rebellion and resistance Christians see, is a result of Christ, as much as it is a result of those who are "Christians".

I somewhat agree. I don't think people literally think they are fed up with Christians because they are upholding Christ's teachings. I think it's something that happens on another level and they don't realize why they are annoyed. But I believe the reason is because their heart isn't right with the Lord and subconsciously that affects their feelings on other things in life.

I have nothing left to offer Jesus but who I REALLY am, what I really am and an open/loving heart toward others. If that's not enough, then I'm surely going to HELL. I don't believe that I am, but others have different views than I do; I gave you the best summary of the definition many "believe" in.

For salvation all Jesus wants from you is to first believe in him, his deity and his resurrections then accept him as Lord and savior. Doing so means you turn your life over to him and allow him to have control. You hop over to the passengers seat and let him drive basically.

I have a love for everyone and a desire to share his word. I believe this was given to me by Christ. Because of that my conviction is to stand up for his values. Maybe others have different convictions, I can only go with my own.

If I didn't believe in God's (or the Creator's) grace, I wouldn't want to TRY believing ANY of what many Christians say they believe. I know it's likely impossible to be "right" in God's eyes. I've tried and failed so many times, I'm tired of trying (really).

I tried to be right in God's eyes too but soon found out I can not be. So I think we should be thankful that he has provided for us so that if we accept his provision for our sin then we can be saved.

Funny thing, when I rolled all of who I am over into God's grace, my struggles were minimized. First, I stopped hating myself, and then accepted others more readily. To me, the "light" is not some standard religious thing many have defined it to be. But that's not worth debating too much (as far as I'm concerned), because the subjectivity surrounding religion and related beliefs (biblically-supported or otherwise), just keeps people arguing, fussing, biting, kicking and scratching at one another.

True, only the Lord can open ones heart to the truth. I share what I believe in the hope that God may use me. The Lord has done so much for me in all that he has done, it's the least I can do but to try to be his vessel.

If that is what Jesus literally CALLS for (that "sword"), then I'll take that up with Him, not those who do not or refuse to believe in Him. If He can't change them, I certainly cannot. I KNOW He can change people through love...but all I've ever done with a weapon, is HURT people.

If you're talking about individual evangelism then you are right, you shouldn't use a spiritual sword but as far as how Christians should act globally I think that is what Jesus came to bring a sword to. What that means is his values war against those of the world and I think that is what we see with Biblical values compared to secular values. So that is why I believe that as far as how our society should be ran we need to not compromise with secular beliefs that are in contradiction to Biblical values. Those contradictions result in things that are hurtful to people and to God and it's our responsibility as Christians to do our best to help in the world. Even if others do not feel that we are helping and hate us for it.

I'm finding more and more, that I'm not a "Christian"; and it's not bothering me anymore. I can't maintain that lack of belief in the things so many SAY I should be able to believe, yet never seem to be "right" enough nor "good" enough to be a part of the club. That duality is not something I can hold inside of my person any longer, and remain sane.

Well I wouldn't say that being a Christian is about being perfect but I would say that it is about agreeing with God that his laws are correct even in the areas that we are failing. In other words it's not about meeting the bar, it's about agreeing where the bar is at and striving for it. If we just become complacent with sin then we're not really doing anyone any good. If you have trouble believing in something central to Christianity then I would recommend doing a fair evaluation of both sides and also some deep meaningful prayer.

"Christians" don't even agree as some SAY they should. And maybe the "way" is so narrow, that it's as hopeless as I once imagined it was. If there is no miracle to align me to that "way", then count me out...completely. And I really doubt if another FLAWED human being can tell me how well I'm aligned with that "way".

Finally, if I REALLY DO have to beat up on others (socially, morally, religiously) who do not believe in MY "way" because the "Bible" says so, then I'm out of the "Christian" club for good (as far as some are concerned). It really is TOO HARD, to be the relgion some expect, and rather than focus upon failure after failure, I think doing one's best inside of the insurmountable grace represented in Jesus' sacrifice makes a lot more sense.

There are a lot of things I fail at as a Christian, but I believe that with God's help I can and will overcome them. But I don't give up and decide that I will no longer believe the mistakes I make are sin. You're right we all need God's grace. I just believe that we must help our brothers instead of just leaving them in their sin. Sin is addictive and yes it hurts to come out of it. But if you love an alcoholic you do not just leave him there because it hurts to stop. Sometimes to help someone you do have to hurt them a little.

Romans 7:14-16 - We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good.

The restrictive and excessively-authoritatian "Christianity" many have promoted in this world, just doesn't make sense to me anymore. I can still make sense of a relationship with Jesus (as one who saved us; John 3:16), but the "standard" Christianity many PUSH at others seems somewhat mind-numbming to me now. Even so, I'm not here to tell other what to think, because I don't even know what to tell them. I used to THINK I did know what to tell them, but reality showed me how little I really knew about anything.

Right, well compared to God we all know very little, me included. What we have to do is our best with what we can do. I pray that God will guide me and give me the words to say and the knowledge to live as he would have. I think our best bet is prayer and his word. None of us have anything to hold over the others, we are all sinners in need of God's grace.

[McCulloch]

There's no justification for anti-semitism in the Bible. You want to blame someone for Christ's death then blame me. It was my sin that put him on the cross. He choose to suffer for the sins of all of us, no one forced him. The jews and romans were just the instrument he used.
Besides Christ is a jew and God loves the Jews! They are the chosen people who he still has a plan for once the all the gentiles are gathered.

Would that all christians throughout the centuries have interpreted the bible as you do. Many Jews would not have gone to an early grave.

Maybe so, but I think a lot of other groups have killed jews as well as either ignorant Christians or so called Christians.
If you think about it being anti-semitic makes absolutely no sense from a Christian perspective. Jesus's death is the best thing for Christians. What kind of Christian isn't happy their sins have been covered? An anti-semitic Christian is an oxy moron.

Yes, and Christians should be glad that Adam and Eve sinned. Because if they had not, then God would not have had the opportunity to show his forgiveness.

The bible itself is very clear on what to do with witches.

Not an open ended commandment. It was meant for the jews during a specific time in history for specific reasons.

That is one interpretation. Others differ.

Yes, but what is the correct interpretation? What was the intended message? That is the only one that counts. I believe anyone's goal during Bible study should be to figure out what the text is trying to say instead of trying to force certain beliefs into the text and then claim it equally valid because it's our interpretation.

Why would an unchanging God condemn a practice with a death sentence in one era and tolerate it in another?

God doesn't ever tolerate sin. All sin has to be dealt with. It's just that sometimes he deals with it differently for different reasons and at different times. We all die because of sin. I guess the verse you are referring to is the one from Exodus chapter 22? Apparently God wanted the Jewish nation free of witchcraft and decided to offer a stern punishment. Christians, who are mostly gentiles are not under the jewish law.

And God does not want Christian societies to be free of witchcraft? Would it be OK for Jewish Christians to stone witches?

The Lord instructed us to follow the ten commandments so those are the open ended commandments.

Really? Could you cite a passage where Jesus makes this instruction? Would that include the fourth commandment, keeping the sabbath?

Slavery is explicitly dealt with and not forbidden in the New Testament.

Not the same as slavery in this country. The slavery mentioned was more of a form of a willing servant. Jacob became a slave in order to earn his wife.

Perhaps you are right. But in order to get to that interpretation, one must have completed a study of comparative history. A literalist reading the bible in the pre-Civil war South could and did read and interpret differently.

Sure, which is why I do not hold Christian faith responsible.

People justified racist abuse of civil rights based on a literal reading of the Christian scripture supported by significant numbers of Christian clergy, but you don't hold the Christian faith responsible. How nice of you!

Your church, and many other churches, look upon these things and other biblical evils (like genocide) as unbiblical. But read the book! They are all there.

Context is the key. Think about it, if they were really biblical values wouldn't we be fighting the world on this issues? After all we don't conform to abortion and homosexuality.

So when Joshua and his tribe committed genocide in their God's name it was a good thing but when modern sectarians commit genocide in their God's name it is a bad thing. Your Bible has a strange way of making the distinction.

The Lord led Joshua into preemptive defensive strategy. Back in those days all the civilizations were fighting against each other for control and power. In order for God to establish his chosen nation he had to play the same game. If the Lord would not have had Joshua destroy the other nations they would have destroyed the jews. It served two fold, not only did the Lord accomplish his goal but he also proved to the ancient world that he was indeed the one true God sense most nations determined divine legitimacy based on what the deity could accomplish.

That would be why all of the ancient countries which bordered Israel were abandoning their gods and adopting the worship of the one true god. That is why the chosen people of God did not have to repeatedly stamp out encroaching idolatry. If God was trying to prove to the ancient world that he was indeed the one true God, he certainly did a lousy job. What would have really opened the eyes of the ancient world would have been if God had established a peaceful nation and protected them supernaturally. Oh well. I guess he didn't think of that.

But the Bible is not like the Koran. We don't have any verse saying go to war if this or that. The open ending commandments the Lord leaves with us are the ten commandments and most importantly to love one another.

Actually, if you take your saviour's words seriously, then you really cannot justify going to war can you?

But I tell you, dont resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. If anyone sues you to take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. Whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and dont turn away him who desires to borrow from you.
You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy. But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Dont even the tax collectors do the same? If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Dont even the tax collectors do the same? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

[AlAyeti]

Non-Christians should listen to anti-Christians. They are experts on the Bible and following Christ.

Christians should also allow the constitution to be followed as well. Since Biblically, churches met in houses, that means return to the Home Church and stop paying property taxes. Seperation of Church and State! Also, since it would be intolerant and discriminatory to force conversions of Christians to non-Christiansim, Christians wouldn't have to pay any taxes but live their lives of perfect peacefulness throughout the land of the infidels completely unmolested by others that know how Christians should live and why.

And since all Christians are told by the ungodly what happenes to the children of the followers of God, society would not have any unruly Christian kids backsliding and commiting any crimes. But of course the loss of innocent and virgin children from society may irritate the pornographers sanctified by the secular laws, so Christians still may find laws against them living out their religion.

I Think Christians can learn a lot from their enemies. Maybe Jesus knew a thing ot two.

But then again, it also seems clear that the Bible only concerns "Fundamenatalists" so Liberal Christians would help out with the tax burden from the loss of so many Bibli-believers.

[redstang281]

If you think about it being anti-semitic makes absolutely no sense from a Christian perspective. Jesus's death is the best thing for Christians. What kind of Christian isn't happy their sins have been covered? An anti-semitic Christian is an oxy moron.

Yes, and Christians should be glad that Adam and Eve sinned. Because if they had not, then God would not have had the opportunity to show his forgiveness.

Yes, that is what I believe was God's plan and is the point to all history.

McCulloch wrote:
Why would an unchanging God condemn a practice with a death sentence in one era and tolerate it in another?
redstang281 wrote:
God doesn't ever tolerate sin. All sin has to be dealt with. It's just that sometimes he deals with it differently for different reasons and at different times. We all die because of sin. I guess the verse you are referring to is the one from Exodus chapter 22? Apparently God wanted the Jewish nation free of witchcraft and decided to offer a stern punishment. Christians, who are mostly gentiles are not under the jewish law.
And God does not want Christian societies to be free of witchcraft?

Sure in a 100% Christian society.

God established Israel to be a nation true to faith and expected it to remain so. The united states on the other hand was established with Christian values but offered provision for other religions. That being said, it's wrong to force capital punishment for not keeping the Christian faith in our multi faith community.

Would it be OK for Jewish Christians to stone witches?

We'll it's a government law anyway, not something for individuals to carry out. But if there is a society that agrees to a unified jewish/christian faith and everyone living there also agrees to it willingly then yes.

redstang281 wrote:
The Lord instructed us to follow the ten commandments so those are the open ended commandments.
Really? Could you cite a passage where Jesus makes this instruction?

In Mark 10:19 Jesus lists what he considers as "the commandments", they correspond with the 10 commandments. These commandments are for individuals, not a specific government during a specific time period.

John 14:21 - He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."

Would that include the fourth commandment, keeping the sabbath?

Yes, but common sense applys to the sabbath which Jesus tried to show to the pharisees.

McCulloch wrote:
Slavery is explicitly dealt with and not forbidden in the New Testament.
redstang281 wrote:
Not the same as slavery in this country. The slavery mentioned was more of a form of a willing servant. Jacob became a slave in order to earn his wife.
McCulloch wrote:
Perhaps you are right. But in order to get to that interpretation, one must have completed a study of comparative history. A literalist reading the bible in the pre-Civil war South could and did read and interpret differently.
redstang281 wrote:
Sure, which is why I do not hold Christian faith responsible.
People justified racist abuse of civil rights based on a literal reading of the Christian scripture supported by significant numbers of Christian clergy, but you don't hold the Christian faith responsible. How nice of you!

Because they were wrong in their interpretation. That would be like me reading my car manually incorrectly and not putting in enough oil then blaming the car manufacturers. That's why it is important to aspire to the correct interpretation of the Bible instead of just saying "well you have your interpretation and I have mine".

The Lord led Joshua into preemptive defensive strategy. Back in those days all the civilizations were fighting against each other for control and power. In order for God to establish his chosen nation he had to play the same game. If the Lord would not have had Joshua destroy the other nations they would have destroyed the jews. It served two fold, not only did the Lord accomplish his goal but he also proved to the ancient world that he was indeed the one true God sense most nations determined divine legitimacy based on what the deity could accomplish.

That would be why all of the ancient countries which bordered Israel were abandoning their gods and adopting the worship of the one true god. That is why the chosen people of God did not have to repeatedly stamp out encroaching idolatry. If God was trying to prove to the ancient world that he was indeed the one true God, he certainly did a lousy job.

Simply believing God is real does not mean you are willing to accept him as Lord and/or follow his commandments.

What would have really opened the eyes of the ancient world would have been if God had established a peaceful nation and protected them supernaturally. Oh well. I guess he didn't think of that.

You're also forgetting that this was God's judgement on those nations anyway.

redstang281 wrote:
But the Bible is not like the Koran. We don't have any verse saying go to war if this or that. The open ending commandments the Lord leaves with us are the ten commandments and most importantly to love one another.

Actually, if you take your saviour's words seriously, then you really cannot justify going to war can you?

Matthew wrote:
But I tell you, dont resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. If anyone sues you to take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. Whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and dont turn away him who desires to borrow from you.
You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy. But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Dont even the tax collectors do the same? If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Dont even the tax collectors do the same? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

That's true, except this is meant for individuals. As in, the procedure to handle things directed at "you". It doesn't address violence on others. If someone breaks into your house and is about to kill your wife or children that's a different situation sense God holds us responsible for taking care of our families the best we can. In the same way God also holds a King (or president) responsible for taking care of a nation as best they can (Romans 13).

[bernee51]

Yes, that is what I believe was God's plan and is the point to all history.

How are you privy to god's plan. Why do you believe this to be so?

Sure in a 100% Christian society.

Is this possible?

We'll it's a government law anyway, not something for individuals to carry out. But if there is a society that agrees to a unified jewish/christian faith and everyone living there also agrees to it willingly then yes.

You would condone murder?

What happened to "Thou shalt not kill"?

Because they were wrong in their interpretation. That would be like me reading my car manually incorrectly and not putting in enough oil then blaming the car manufacturers. That's why it is important to aspire to the correct interpretation of the Bible instead of just saying "well you have your interpretation and I have mine".

This is the major problem and major flaw is it not?

Who's interpretation is the correct one?

How do you know your's is correct and mine incorrect?

Do you consider yourself to be a "true christian" (tm)? Why so?

[melikio]

Sadly, there's no way to resolve this debate, because both sides rely on faith, and there's no external standard which we can use to compare them.

Great point.

Even so, people should be aware that we don't live in a perfect world. And they should realize that people AREN'T the same. That treating others as they would care to be treated, matters.

So I respectfully say (in "faith"), that unconditional love conquers all human problems.

-Mel-

[redstang281]

redstang281 wrote:
Yes, that is what I believe was God's plan and is the point to all history.

How are you privy to god's plan. Why do you believe this to be so?

From the Bible. God is outside of time and knew what would happen yet he still choose to banish Satan to the earth. The only reason I can think of is to give him the opertunity to redeem us.

Sure in a 100% Christian society.

Is this possible?

Not until Satan is bound.

We'll it's a government law anyway, not something for individuals to carry out. But if there is a society that agrees to a unified jewish/christian faith and everyone living there also agrees to it willingly then yes.

You would condone murder?

What happened to "Thou shalt not kill"?

The word kill in Exodus 20:13 is ratsach which means murder. To kill and to Murder are different things. Murder is something that is done out of hatred for unjustified reasons. To kill someone although it's not desirable still may be necessary.

1 John 3:15 - Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Also notice that in this verse God is saying that he kills which is the word muwth having the meaning of being put to death from neglect of moral conduct.

Deuteronomy 32:39 - "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

redstang281 wrote:
Because they were wrong in their interpretation. That would be like me reading my car manually incorrectly and not putting in enough oil then blaming the car manufacturers. That's why it is important to aspire to the correct interpretation of the Bible instead of just saying "well you have your interpretation and I have mine".

This is the major problem and major flaw is it not?

Who's interpretation is the correct one?

How do you know your's is correct and mine incorrect?

You test interpretation based upon it's consistence with the rest of the Bible. Read the Bible plainly for what it says and if you encounter a difficult text you use the simplier clearer verse to shed light on it. Don't force the Bible to read what you want it to let it speak for itself. Always use prayer.

Do you consider yourself to be a "true christian" (tm)? Why so?

Being a Biblical definition of a Christian, that is a follower of Christ, is not about being good or belonging to a certain church or group. It is about your relationship to the Lord. It is about faith. Are you able to trust in God?God reveals things to us and asks us to accept it. If we can then we have faith, if we can't then we don't. God revealed to us his truths apart from the confusion abundant in the world through his word the Bible. The Bible says Jesus is the son of God and he died for our sins and rose from the dead. If you can believe that and accept it in your heart then you are a Christian.

[redstang281]

McCulloch wrote:
Yes, and Christians should be glad that Adam and Eve sinned. Because if they had not, then God would not have had the opportunity to show his forgiveness.

redstang281 wrote:
Yes, that is what I believe was God's plan and is the point to all history.

How are you privy to god's plan. Why do you believe this to be so?

It's in the Bible. Considering that God has infinite foreknowledge and inspite of that he still chose to banished Satan to Earth which resulted in all of creation being cursed with sin. Sense God allowed for something to happen that radically cripples everything in the universe I would say that he must have had a reason and a point to doing so.

Romans 8:20-23 - for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

redstang281 wrote:
Sure in a 100% Christian society.

Is this possible?

Not until Satan is bound. (Revelation 20)

redstang281 wrote:
We'll it's a government law anyway, not something for individuals to carry out. But if there is a society that agrees to a unified jewish/christian faith and everyone living there also agrees to it willingly then yes.

You would condone murder?

What happened to "Thou shalt not kill"?

Murder and killing are two different things.Murder implies an unjust killing brought on from hate. That is actually the root meaning of the word kill in Exodus 20:13.

1 John 3:15 - Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.


To kill someone may not be a desirable thing but sometimes it is necessary only because of the world we live in. It is not sin for God to kill because he has perfect judgement. Man can not unless instructed to by God because our judgement is limited.

In this verse below where God mentions his ability to kill the root word implies to kill from neglect of moral conduct.

Deuteronomy 32:39 - "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

redstang281 wrote:
Because they were wrong in their interpretation. That would be like me reading my car manually incorrectly and not putting in enough oil then blaming the car manufacturers. That's why it is important to aspire to the correct interpretation of the Bible instead of just saying "well you have your interpretation and I have mine".


This is the major problem and major flaw is it not? Who's interpretation is the correct one? How do you know your's is correct and mine incorrect?

You determine what is correct and incorrect based upon comparing it to the rest of the Bible. Also you should not attempt to force the Bible to say something you should let it speak for itself. Read the Bible plainly for what it says and if something does not make sense then use simpler verse to shed light on it. Use prayer as well.

Do you consider yourself to be a "true christian" (tm)? Why so?

I contend that a true Christian is one who possesses genuine faith. It is not about if you are good, or what church you belong to or any other group. It is about your relationship with God. Faith is the instrument that God applies his grace to you. If you are able to believe and accept that Jesus was the son of God and he died for you then that is true faith. Sense the old testament often likens the faith required for salvation with the faith required to trusting God at his word I conclude that if you have genuine faith in Christ for salvation then you should also have faith in the Bible and what it says.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--

Hebrews 11:8 - By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.

[McCulloch]

Yes, and Christians should be glad that Adam and Eve sinned. Because if they had not, then God would not have had the opportunity to show his forgiveness.

Yes, that is what I believe was God's plan and is the point to all history.

How are you privy to god's plan. Why do you believe this to be so?

It's in the Bible. Considering that God has infinite foreknowledge and inspite of that he still chose to banished Satan to Earth which resulted in all of creation being cursed with sin. Sense God allowed for something to happen that radically cripples everything in the universe I would say that he must have had a reason and a point to doing so.

Romans 8:20-23 - for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

So is it Christ's resurrection that set things straight or do we have to wait for the second coming? If it was the resurrection, then why are things not substantially different from before? If the second coming then God's plan does not make a whole lot of sense. Make a really good universe in six days, then have it screwed up by one act of sin and leave it that way for thousands of years.

Murder and killing are two different things. Murder implies an unjust killing brought on from hate. That is actually the root meaning of the word kill in Exodus 20:13.
1 John 3:15 - Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
To kill someone may not be a desirable thing but sometimes it is necessary only because of the world we live in. It is not sin for God to kill because he has perfect judgement. Man can not unless instructed to by God because our judgement is limited.

Then killing for you government or for your state is also morally wrong.

Because they were wrong in their interpretation. That would be like me reading my car manually incorrectly and not putting in enough oil then blaming the car manufacturers. That's why it is important to aspire to the correct interpretation of the Bible instead of just saying "well you have your interpretation and I have mine".

This is the major problem and major flaw is it not? Who's interpretation is the correct one? How do you know your's is correct and mine incorrect?

You determine what is correct and incorrect based upon comparing it to the rest of the Bible. Also you should not attempt to force the Bible to say something you should let it speak for itself. Read the Bible plainly for what it says and if something does not make sense then use simpler verse to shed light on it. Use prayer as well.

Wow, what a great idea! I wonder why theologians in the many sects and denominations of Christianity had not thought of that before. We can know the true meaning of the Bible. Bible based Christian ecumenicalism is at hand!
I know that it is an old thread, but I would be interested in your answer to the question does sectarianism prove the Bible isn't God's Complete Revelation?

[redstang281]

McCulloch wrote:
Yes, and Christians should be glad that Adam and Eve sinned. Because if they had not, then God would not have had the opportunity to show his forgiveness.

redstang281 wrote:
Yes, that is what I believe was God's plan and is the point to all history.
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How are you privy to god's plan. Why do you believe this to be so?

redstang281 wrote:
It's in the Bible. Considering that God has infinite foreknowledge and inspite of that he still chose to banished Satan to

Earth which resulted in all of creation being cursed with sin. Sense God allowed for something to happen that radically cripples everything in the universe I would say that he must have had a reason and a point to doing so.

Romans 8:20-23 - for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

So is it Christ's resurrection that set things straight or do we have to wait for the second coming? If it was the resurrection, then why are things not substantially different from before? If the second coming then God's plan does not make a whole lot of sense. Make a really good universe in six days, then have it screwed up by one act of sin and leave it that way for thousands of years.

The resurrection pays our debt so God can legally claim us. Right now the Lord is waiting for all the gentiles that will to come to faith, then his focus will go back to the Jews and then will be the second coming.

Romans 11:25 - Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in,

All history is God's garden and we are what grows in it. Before God can deal with sin he first has to collect his followers.

Matthew 13:37-43 - He answered, "He who sows the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world, and the good seed means the sons of the kingdom; the weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

redstang281 wrote:
Murder and killing are two different things. Murder implies an unjust killing brought on from hate. That is actually the root meaning of the word kill in Exodus 20:13.

1 John 3:15 - Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

To kill someone may not be a desirable thing but sometimes it is necessary only because of the world we live in. It is not sin for God to kill because he has perfect judgement. Man can not unless instructed to by God because our judgement is limited.

Then killing for you government or for your state is also morally wrong.

The Bible only supports capital punishment for certain things, and for those things then it is justifiable in God's eyes.

redstang281 wrote:
Because they were wrong in their interpretation. That would be like me reading my car manually incorrectly and not putting in enough oil then blaming the car manufacturers. That's why it is important to aspire to the correct interpretation of the Bible instead of just saying "well you have your interpretation and I have mine".

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This is the major problem and major flaw is it not? Who's interpretation is the correct one? How do you know your's is correct and mine incorrect?

redstang281 wrote:
You determine what is correct and incorrect based upon comparing it to the rest of the Bible. Also you should not attempt to force the Bible to say something you should let it speak for itself. Read the Bible plainly for what it says and if something does not make sense then use simpler verse to shed light on it. Use prayer as well.

Wow, what a great idea! I wonder why theologians in the many sects and denominations of Christianity had not thought of that before. We can know the true meaning of the Bible. Bible based Christian ecumenicalism is at hand! I know that it is an old thread, but I would be interested in your answer to the question does sectarianism prove the Bible isn't God's Complete Revelation?

I'll take a look when I get a chance. Although I don't really see what sectarianism has to do with whether or not the Bible is God's revelation. Some denominations have things obviously wrong in their traditions as far as the Bible is concerned. Not to pick on Catholics but they insist we refer to their priests as "father" when that is forbidden in the Bible (Matthew 23:9). I don't necessarily think any one denomination is 100% correct. In Revelation Jesus sends seven letters to seven church that are basically a report card on how well they are doing. Each church had some areas that were good and others that needed improvement. Man kind has made some mistakes on Biblical interpretation but that's not the Bible's fault that's man's sinful nature to blame.