Just how virtuous is faith really?

[OnceConvinced]

This thread is inspired by a question Divine Insight asked recently, questioning just why we should consider faith virtuous.

Theists talk of faith as if being faithful is some kind of great virtue. Something that is so crucial to our well being. Sure, the bible tells us this, but really why is faith so virtuous? Why is it so important to a god?

I especially ask this from a non-theist perspective, why should anyone see faith as virtuous? As something desirable?

[OnceConvinced]

Well then you've answered your own question.

... why should anyone see faith as virtuous? As something desirable?

Because ...

Faith CAN move someone to perform positive actions. ...

It could be [...] positive.

I said CAN move you to do virtuous actions. It COULD be positive. That doesn't make it virtuous. The thing is faith can also lead one to evil actions. So we can't just say that faith is a virtue, because it's virtue is not in the faith itself, but the ACTIONS.

I've already quoted you a bible verse that tells us quite plainly that faith alone is not virtuous. It tells us that faith without works is dead. Do you just wish to ignore that verse?

I shall quote it again as you seem to have glossed over it.


James 2:14-27
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Notice what it's saying. CAN faith save him? No, of course not because faith alone is not a virtue. The scripture here states that action MUST be taken! Good intentions are not enough. Good actions are what are worthy of praise. Good actions are virtuous. Faith alone is not. Faith alone is dead.

If I told you "this vitamine could help you lose weight and move you to want to exercise having a positive effect on your health and well being " I'm sure you can understand why some would view such a thing as positive and something desirable.

It could be that some people have an allergy to this vitamin. One that could cause instant death. Does that still make the vitamin a good one?

Just because it may be good for some people does not mean you should consider the vitamin to be something wonderful.

The point I am trying to make is that just because something may result in something positive, does not make it something worthy of praise. It ALWAYS comes down to our actions as people. THAT is what makes something worthy of praise. THAT is what determines virtue. Good intentions mean nothing if there is no action.

Let's take a look at this from a slightly different angle.

You have two people.

Person A
Person B

Person A is a Muslim. He has great faith that he is going to Heaven and will be rewarded by Allah.
Person B is a Christian. He has great faith that he is going to Heaven and will be rewarded by Jesus.

Both have great faith. If we are to say faith is a virtue then, according to your logic, we have to say that both A and B are very virtuous people. They both have great faith in their gods.

However...

Person A believes Allah is telling him to strap explosives to himself an blow up a train station full of people. So he goes and he does that blowing up a train station full of people.

Person B believes Jesus is telling him to go to Ethiopia and help starving people. So he does.

What has changed? Certainly not the faith. both have done exactly what they believed their god wanted them to do. it's just that Person A's act was evil, while Person B's act is benevolent.

So we can see here its actions that determine the virtue, not the actual faith itself.

[Hamsaka]

This thread is inspired by a question Divine Insight asked recently, questioning just why we should consider faith virtuous.

Theists talk of faith as if being faithful is some kind of great virtue. Something that is so crucial to our well being. Sure, the bible tells us this, but really why is faith so virtuous? Why is it so important to a god?

I especially ask this from a non-theist perspective, why should anyone see faith as virtuous? As something desirable?

I understand that faith is a conscious decision to 'believe' regardless of circumstance or experience. For the fideist, faith is a goal in and of itself, like you said, faith as virtue. Faith as a precious acquisition that is necessary to avoid the dire consequence of eternity separated from God. Faith 'earns' a person the reward of eternal salvation and must not flicker or fade lest this reward be lost.

It is necessary to endure 'reality' conflicting with faith, and recommended that when they do conflict, because they will, to recognize the conflict for what it is -- an opportunity to divorce one's faith from one's experience and rely on a vague collection of specific thoughts, feelings and ideas regardless of 'reality'. Over time and lots of practice, this gets much easier, ask me how I know

I do experience faith, but it is nothing like what I just described. The above is my experience as a Christian believer, doing what I was told was necessary to maintain faith. Obviously, it didn't work for me like it does for other people, or what I understand how it works for others. What I do have that I call 'faith' is a fluctuating confidence and trust that is not a fixed point based on unchanging, ineffable abstractions (whatever those are ). It comes and goes but I don't take my direction from it except when I need to endure adversity or take a calculated risk.