Is Gay Marriage Considered a Sin?

[POI]

For debate:

Is same sex marriage a sin?
If so, where does the Bible say this?
Further, why is it a sin?

[Darwin's Hammer]

He gave men concubines as a blessing.

Chapter and verse?

2 Samuel 7-8

Second Samuel chapter 7 verse 8?

I gave you your master's daughter and your master's wives for yourself, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had not been enough, I would have given you much more. 2 Samuel 12:8

I am specifically asking for you to cite (book name chapter and verses) where God sanctioned 7 different forms of marriage. ie I am asking you to support your claim with specific biblical references (correctly presented* so I can verify them)

One man + one woman Gen 2:24
One man + several women in practically every book of the old testament
One man + his brother's widow (leverite marriage) Ge 38:6-10
One man + wives + concubines Exodus 21:7-11, Gen 25:6, and dozens of other places
A rapist and his victim Deut 22, 28-29, Judges 21:10-24
One man + one or more women + slave(s) Gen 16
One male slave + one female slave Exodus 21:4
One male soldier + virgin female prisoner of war Num 31:1-18, Deut 21:11-14 Judges 5:30, Zechariah 14:1-2 (this is particularly disturbing as females of that ear were married as soon as they have their first menses meaning the soldiers were raping little girls to make them their wives.

[JehovahsWitness]

Second Samuel chapter 7 verse 8?

I gave you your master's daughter* and your master's wives for yourself, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had not been enough, I would have given you much more. 2 Samuel 12:8

* David married Sauls daughter Michal

It was customary for an incoming king to inherit the property of the outgoing (this would include members of his houshold) ; there is no record of David actually marrying any of Sauls wives* so the "gave" in their case would simply mean they came under his jurisdiction/ became part of his household. As has been pointed out one should not confuse God recognising, regulating and/or tolerating customs with inaugorating, instigating or/and approving them.

DEUTERONOMY 17:16 -18

But the king must not acquire many horses for himself or send the people back to Egypt to acquire more horses, for the LORD has said, You are never to go back that way again. 17He must not take many wives for himself, lest his heart go astray. He must not accumulate for himself large amounts of silver and gold. 18When he is seated on his royal throne, he must write for himself a copy of this instruction on a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests

.



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[JehovahsWitness]

One man + several women in practically every book of the old testament
...
[1] One man + wives + concubines Exodus 21:7-11, Gen 25:6, and dozens of other places
[2] One man + one or more women + slave(s) Gen 16
...

Firstly, I do believe you mention SEVEN forms. Your list actually represents two (probably one as "Slave-wives" would normallly be considered concubines) See NOTE below. Further, I see absolutely no mention of these relationships being instigated or santioned by God. They are mentioned in scripture but so is murder and canibalsim. Is your position that everything that is mentioned in scripture is sanctioned and approved of by God?

The bible documents human behaviour, most of which God has merely tolerated or in some cases , regulated not approved and certainly not instigated. Jesus was quite clear that the divine gold standard when it comes to marriage was one man one woman. All other forms of marriage were tolerated for a time.

[ * ] NOTE How the one wife is obtained does not represent an alternative form of marriage; for example arranged marriages do not violate the original divine standard if they consist of one man + one woman

[ * ]STILL ONE MAN ONE WOMAN

One man + his brother's widow (leverite marriage) Ge 38:6-10
A rapist and his victim Deut 22, 28-29, Judges 21:10-24
One male slave + one female slave Exodus 21:4
One male soldier + virgin female prisoner of war Num 31:1-18, Deut 21:11-14 Judges 5:30, Zechariah 14:1-2

MATTHEW 19: 4-7

"Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said: For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh? So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart."

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To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SEX , MARRIAGE and ... DIVORCE

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #70]

BTW post 64 is between you and someone else.

"None of this addresses my repeated inquiry. If humans were already around, why did God have to 'create' Eve? And yet, there is no mention of God having to 'create' a wife for Cain. Thus, the apologist could easily argue that the Bible merely only mentioned the two male offspring of Adam."

Before I answer other things, I want to be sure it is worth my time. I have answered this already and you did not understand that I answered it. I do not want to condescend but I am going to so that I am sure my answer is understood this time around.

The story is not literal. I do not read it as a history story just like I do not read Aesop's fables as history stories. I do not believe there was a unique creation of Eve from Adam. This part of the story is only to show that we become one with our wife (not with the same sex). Man and woman will cling together and become one flesh.

It is about the unity of Adam and Eve.

Here is how I think it might have actually happened. God caused evolution. At some point he gave homo sapiens a soul and they became homo sapiens sapiens. At some point he took two of these people, Adam and Eve and placed them in a special garden. He did not take the side or rib of Adam and create Eve.

The story of Eve coming from Adam might be trying to show us the deeper relationship between our souls. We do not have male or female souls. We only have these traits while united with out bodies. Of course, we will eventually be in our resurrected body in which will remain the sex it was before it died. So in that way, we will eternally be in male or female bodies. The soul itself though is not male or female.

Thus to ask, why did God have to create Eve as if she was created from Adam's rib is not a valid question in my beliefs. Cain got his wife from these other humans that were not Adam and Eve who were placed in the garden, no where they the children of Adam and Eve. They were the other humans that evolved.

Also, it is possible there were types of humans that never got a soul, thus they remain beasts, like a neanderthal. It would have been forbidden to sleep with such animals, beasts, which might be why the law says do not sleep with the beasts.

If you have further questions you think need to be answered as to my position on gays, ask, but please try to understand my position first.

[POI]

The story is not literal. I do not read it as a history story just like I do not read Aesop's fables as history stories.

Yes. I already acknowledged this many responses ago, when I informed that you are going to go with the 'allegory" argument. So yea, pick and choose however you like.... If it seems inconvenient, spin it to taste.... I get it.... Heck. Why stop there? Go ahead and spin all of it, all the way through the alleged resurrection story. But, if you read what I'm actually saying, you will see how you must apply special pleading to make your story fit, regardless of how you wish to spin the interpretation.

I do not believe there was a unique creation of Eve from Adam. This part of the story is only to show that we become one with our wife (not with the same sex). Man and woman will cling together and become one flesh. It is about the unity of Adam and Eve.

Special pleading.... All marriages are defined to be this way, by the Bible. And yet, there exists no special necessary 'creation' for any of the humans AFTER Adam. It's pretty safe to conclude the author of this passage was under the assumption that Adam was the first human. And again, I repeat, if YHWH was the information provider, and the author was the mere ghost writer, then YHWH appears clueless to actual events.

Here is how I think it might have actually happened. God caused evolution.

Bracing myself for more unnecessary spin...

At some point he gave homo sapiens a soul and they became homo sapiens sapiens. At some point he took two of these people, Adam and Eve and placed them in a special garden. He did not take the side or rib of Adam and create Eve.

The story of Eve coming from Adam might be trying to show us the deeper relationship between our souls. We do not have male or female souls. We only have these traits while united with out bodies. Of course, we will eventually be in our resurrected body in which will remain the sex it was before it died. So in that way, we will eternally be in male or female bodies. The soul itself though is not male or female.

Being that Genesis is pretty straight forward, and not too in depth and/or descriptive, I see nothing but a bunch of wishful thinking from you... Being that you acknowledge evolutionary biology, you know you must concoct an alternative 'interpretation'. Again, the tell-tale signs are as follows:

1) "Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."
2) "Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky."
3) "Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man."

Notice that in 1) and 2), God 'creates' them in the same manor --> from the ground. Since wild animals and birds do not have 'souls', then your rationale is quite suspect. It's QUITE the stretch to conclude that God planted two "souls" into two (animal/humans).

Thus to ask, why did God have to create Eve as if she was created from Adam's rib is not a valid question in my beliefs.

Sure, but your belief looks to be hope-based, to stay in line with your acknowledged apprehension to evolutionary biology.

Cain got his wife from these other humans that were not Adam and Eve who were placed in the garden, no where they the children of Adam and Eve. They were the other humans that evolved.

How about you just go with what the Bible says? Meaning, Adam and Eve had many kids, over the centuries.... (i.e.)

"When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died." --- Genesis 5

Apparently, according to hermeneutics scholars, incest was okay before "the flood"

Also, it is possible there were types of humans that never got a soul, thus they remain beasts, like a neanderthal. It would have been forbidden to sleep with such animals, beasts, which might be why the law says do not sleep with the beasts.

More wishful thinking. Kool.

**********************

Can we get to post #64 now?

[brunumb]

[Replying to POI in post #70]

BTW post 64 is between you and someone else.

"None of this addresses my repeated inquiry. If humans were already around, why did God have to 'create' Eve? And yet, there is no mention of God having to 'create' a wife for Cain. Thus, the apologist could easily argue that the Bible merely only mentioned the two male offspring of Adam."

Before I answer other things, I want to be sure it is worth my time. I have answered this already and you did not understand that I answered it. I do not want to condescend but I am going to so that I am sure my answer is understood this time around.

The story is not literal. I do not read it as a history story just like I do not read Aesop's fables as history stories. I do not believe there was a unique creation of Eve from Adam. This part of the story is only to show that we become one with our wife (not with the same sex). Man and woman will cling together and become one flesh.

It is about the unity of Adam and Eve.

Here is how I think it might have actually happened. God caused evolution. At some point he gave homo sapiens a soul and they became homo sapiens sapiens. At some point he took two of these people, Adam and Eve and placed them in a special garden. He did not take the side or rib of Adam and create Eve.

The story of Eve coming from Adam might be trying to show us the deeper relationship between our souls. We do not have male or female souls. We only have these traits while united with out bodies. Of course, we will eventually be in our resurrected body in which will remain the sex it was before it died. So in that way, we will eternally be in male or female bodies. The soul itself though is not male or female.

Thus to ask, why did God have to create Eve as if she was created from Adam's rib is not a valid question in my beliefs. Cain got his wife from these other humans that were not Adam and Eve who were placed in the garden, no where they the children of Adam and Eve. They were the other humans that evolved.

Also, it is possible there were types of humans that never got a soul, thus they remain beasts, like a neanderthal. It would have been forbidden to sleep with such animals, beasts, which might be why the law says do not sleep with the beasts.

If you have further questions you think need to be answered as to my position on gays, ask, but please try to understand my position first.

The more I read stuff like that the more I am convinced that it is nothing but wild fantasy concocted on the fly. To suggest that an intelligent being capable of creating an entire universe would then indulge in such ridiculous wrangling with barely intelligent animals is mind boggling in the extreme. I am really thankful that I manged to drag myself out of the rabbit hole of religious belief.

[Darwin's Hammer]

Second Samuel chapter 7 verse 8?

I gave you your master's daughter* and your master's wives for yourself, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had not been enough, I would have given you much more. 2 Samuel 12:8

* David married Sauls daughter Michal

It was customary for an incoming king to inherit the property of the outgoing (this would include members of his houshold) ; there is no record of David actually marrying any of Sauls wives* so the "gave" in their case would simply mean they came under his jurisdiction/ became part of his household. As has been pointed out one should not confuse God recognising, regulating and/or tolerating customs with inaugorating, instigating or/and approving them.

David had a lot of wives. Only 8 of them are named though: Michal, Maacah, Haggith, Abital, Eglah, Bathshiba, Abigail and Ahinoam....What was the name of Michal's mother again?

[Darwin's Hammer]

One man + several women in practically every book of the old testament
...
[1] One man + wives + concubines Exodus 21:7-11, Gen 25:6, and dozens of other places
[2] One man + one or more women + slave(s) Gen 16
...

Firstly, I do believe you mention SEVEN forms. Your list actually represents two (probably one as "Slave-wives" would normallly be considered concubines) See NOTE below. Further, I see absolutely no mention of these relationships being instigated or santioned by God. They are mentioned in scripture but so is murder and canibalsim. Is your position that everything that is mentioned in scripture is sanctioned and approved of by God?

Did you miss the rest of the list.

and no Hagar was not a concubine. If a female slave is taken as a concubine they are afforded the status of a concubine and is no longer a slave. While beneath a man's wives they cannot be mistreated by the man's wives and Sarah mistreats Hagar, Further after Abraham knocks her up he still refers to her as a slave Gen 16:3-6 Further After Hagar escapes she is found by an angle who refers to her not as Abraham's wife or concubine but as Sarah's slave Gen 16:8. The angel acting as the agent of God then commands Hagar to return to her position as slave. So the situation gets a divine stamp of approval.

The bible documents human behaviour, most of which God has merely tolerated or in some cases , regulated not approved and certainly not instigated. Jesus was quite clear that the divine gold standard when it comes to marriage was one man one woman. All other forms of marriage were tolerated for a time.

God laid out over 600 laws....seems tome that adding one more saying "one wife per customer only" woudl not have been that difficult to add to the list....that is if God actually disapproved

[ * ] NOTE How the one wife is obtained does not represent an alternative form of marriage; for example arranged marriages do not violate the original divine standard if they consist of one man + one woman

[ * ]STILL ONE MAN ONE WOMAN

One man + his brother's widow (leverite marriage) Ge 38:6-10
A rapist and his victim Deut 22, 28-29, Judges 21:10-24
One male slave + one female slave Exodus 21:4
One male soldier + virgin female prisoner of war Num 31:1-18, Deut 21:11-14 Judges 5:30, Zechariah 14:1-2

...seems you didn't miss the list at all, just ignored it.

[JehovahsWitness]

....What was the name of Michal's mother again?

We don't know for sure but its probably Ahinoam; I'm sure you know your bible enough not to suggest Ahinoam the Jezreelitess (wife of David) was the same Ahinoam who was the wife of Saul. So... why do you ask?

[JehovahsWitness]

..Hagar was not a concubine. ... After Hagar escapes she is found by an angle who refers to her not as Abraham's wife or concubine but as Sarah's slave Gen 16:8.

GENESIS 16:3

After Abram had lived for ten years in the land of Canaan, Abrams wife Sarai took her Egyptian servant Hagar and gave her to her husband Abram as his wife

.