What's the Point of Prayer?

[POI]

In regards to the following verses -- Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23....

What do they really mean? I've debated many theists, and get a whole mess of conflicting answers. It will likely be no surprise if that continues here. After some thought, here are some findings...

1. All prayer is pointless, as any "answered prayer" would merely mean, <at best>, that it already aligned with God's will. Why? Because you cannot make God change His will. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

2. Ignore the above! God answers all prayer with a (yes, no, or later). His answer, of course, would be "no" if you are asking God to commit a 'sin.' But if this option is the case, I guess he will always say no to the requests of restoring lost limbs, reversing cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome. Why? Because they will die with these conditions, which means they remained unfulfilled until natural death. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above, as there really exists no such caveats....?

3. Ignore choices 1. and 2.! Prayer is only meant for giving thanks, other. God is not a slot machine! But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

I'm sure there exists a plethora of other explanations........ You get the gist....

For Debate:

What is the point of prayer? I guess we can start here, and see where this goes....

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #70]

As to not go in circles because I already answered everything else, I see only one new question to address.

(ME) Well thank you for presenting the error of my ways So prayer is not pointless, if you possess an incurable condition?

No, because even if God doesn't cure your incurable disease, he might grant you other graces such as a quick and peaceful death, rather than a drawn-out horrible death. Even if all he gave you was peace and comfort while dying, that is amazing as many die with anxiety, fear, discomfort, etc.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #70]

As to not go in circles because I already answered everything else, I see only one new question to address.

(ME) Well thank you for presenting the error of my ways So prayer is not pointless, if you possess an incurable condition?

No, because even if God doesn't cure your incurable disease, he might grant you other graces such as a quick and peaceful death, rather than a drawn-out horrible death. Even if all he gave you was peace and comfort while dying, that is amazing as many die with anxiety, fear, discomfort, etc.

Seems like you are struggling to maintain any position here... Now prayer can work, if you pray for a quick death for these incurable conditions? I would imagine you now argue this because the lines can much more easily be blurred

Prior to now, your argument was that, because I cannot prove a negative, then it's still possible. Meaning, I cannot prove that no one has ever had an incurable condition cured from prayer. And that maybe there exists some folks, who live in Timbuktu or other, who have had any of the aforementioned incurable conditions cured.

If you pray for God to CURE your incurable condition, then your prayer is likely pointless, right? (yes or no)

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #70]

As to not go in circles because I already answered everything else, I see only one new question to address.

(ME) Well thank you for presenting the error of my ways So prayer is not pointless, if you possess an incurable condition?

No, because even if God doesn't cure your incurable disease, he might grant you other graces such as a quick and peaceful death, rather than a drawn-out horrible death. Even if all he gave you was peace and comfort while dying, that is amazing as many die with anxiety, fear, discomfort, etc.

Seems like you are struggling to maintain any position here... Now prayer can work, if you pray for a quick death for these incurable conditions? I would imagine you now argue this because the lines can much more easily be blurred

Prior to now, your argument was that, because I cannot prove a negative, then it's still possible. Meaning, I cannot prove that no one has ever had an incurable condition cured from prayer. And that maybe there exists some folks, who live in Timbuktu or other, who have had any of the aforementioned incurable conditions cured.

If you pray for God to CURE your incurable condition, then your prayer is likely pointless, right? (yes or no)

By what set of data will we determine how likely it is?

And I already said why it would not be pointless to pray to be cured because even if you were not cured, you could be gifted a quick death. Are you saying a quick death is not better than a slow painful death?

If you agree that a quick death is better than a slow painful death, and if you received a quick death as a result of your prayer to be cured, was that prayer pointless?

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #70]

As to not go in circles because I already answered everything else, I see only one new question to address.

(ME) Well thank you for presenting the error of my ways So prayer is not pointless, if you possess an incurable condition?

No, because even if God doesn't cure your incurable disease, he might grant you other graces such as a quick and peaceful death, rather than a drawn-out horrible death. Even if all he gave you was peace and comfort while dying, that is amazing as many die with anxiety, fear, discomfort, etc.

Seems like you are struggling to maintain any position here... Now prayer can work, if you pray for a quick death for these incurable conditions? I would imagine you now argue this because the lines can much more easily be blurred

Prior to now, your argument was that, because I cannot prove a negative, then it's still possible. Meaning, I cannot prove that no one has ever had an incurable condition cured from prayer. And that maybe there exists some folks, who live in Timbuktu or other, who have had any of the aforementioned incurable conditions cured.

If you pray for God to CURE your incurable condition, then your prayer is likely pointless, right? (yes or no)

By what set of data will we determine how likely it is?

And I already said why it would not be pointless to pray to be cured because even if you were not cured, you could be gifted a quick death. Are you saying a quick death is not better than a slow painful death?

If you agree that a quick death is better than a slow painful death, and if you received a quick death as a result of your prayer to be cured, was that prayer pointless?

Let me ask you an honest question..... How exactly do you demonstrate that a claim does not happen? This is a serious question Hint hint, because there exists no real documented cases of it happening. Now, you might want to refer to the Bible as real and documented, or some erroneous case, from some undefined location, where this has happened. But none have been verified, and are instead to be taken upon 'faith'.

So, let's try this again.... Your rebuttal is pure nonsense. You are attempting to get me to chase a rabbit trail, or are presenting a strawman. I am NOT debating you as to whether or not God answers the call for quick deaths for incurable conditions. Furthermore, WHY IN THE HECK would someone pray for a quick death, if they have an incurable amputation?.?.?.

So please, answer my actual question. It's a (yes or no) question:

If you pray for God to CURE your incurable condition, does He cure your incurable condition?

If yes, demonstrate it. I asked you many responses ago...

If no, then I guess we can add it to the list of... "well, you cannot demonstrate that it will never happen"

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #74]

If you pray for God to CURE your incurable condition, does He cure your incurable condition?

It could be that God has and does answer such prayers only when it doesn't prove his existence because he wills to remain mostly hidden. So if someone doesn't go to the doctors because they live in a poor area and they are actually dying of an incurable disease, they pray and God heals them.

There would be no way for anyone to know for sure it was incurable, so it could not be used to demonstrate God's existence.

So if this were the case, then yes, God does cure an incurable condition.

There are also cases of people that were given a death sentence for cancer. They received no more treatment. Then the cancer went into remission and the person got healthy again. The unbelieve might think, well I guess their body healed itself. Or, it could bet hat God healed them.

Some examples in the link below. Scientists are always trying to figure out how the body might do this. Even if they figure out what the body might be doing, doesn't mean God is not the one causing the body to do the very thing necessary to get rid of cancer.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2015 ... ing-cancer

After 20 weeks, the patient was cancer-free. "There had been no doubt about her diagnosis," he says. "But now there was nothing in the biopsies, or the scans."

The question is, how? Irvines patient believed it was the hand of God; she had kissed a religious relic just before the healing set in.

[Diagoras]

It could be that God has and does answer such prayers only when it doesn't prove his existence because he wills to remain mostly hidden.

Oh, thats good!

Why am I suddenly reminded of John Cleese though? ("Not necessarily - I could be arguing in my spare time")

Just one slight niggle though - how might God decide whom to reveal himself to (as various people claim)? Is he purposely choosing people who wont be believed? He seems very keen for people to come to him and be discovered, and yet a tad too fond of only leaving vague and cryptic clues around the place. Yknow, like his sons face in a burrito and statues dispensing milk, etc.

[POI]

(YOU) It could be that God has and does answer such prayers only when it doesn't prove his existence because he wills to remain mostly hidden. So if someone doesn't go to the doctors because they live in a poor area and they are actually dying of an incurable disease, they pray and God heals them.

(ME) Aaaah. With a rationale like this, you will have no problem retaining believe, via belief preservation. So God wants to remain hidden with any/all known people with incurable conditions, who pray for a cure? And maybe, just maybe, somewhere there exists a poor person or two, where they prayed for their leg to grow back, and then it did! Got it.

Remember what I asked prior.... How in the heck does someone prove that something cannot happen? But I guess I'm still caught up in the web of trying to prove a negative here... Go figure....

(YOU) There would be no way for anyone to know for sure it was incurable, so it could not be used to demonstrate God's existence.

Hmmm. Right, there is no way to prove a negative. So I guess your (rationally justified belief) is safe.

(YOU) There are also cases of people that were given a death sentence for cancer.

(ME) In case you forgot, I already mentioned cancer many posts back. Please re-read that post.

(YOU) The question is, how? Irvines patient believed it was the hand of God; she had kissed a religious relic just before the healing set in. [/quote]

(ME) Here's an idea, bring this relic to a children's cancer center, and let's let the healing begin. Oh, wait a minute, then we might start to think god exists. Nevermind.

[AquinasForGod]

It could be that God has and does answer such prayers only when it doesn't prove his existence because he wills to remain mostly hidden.

Oh, thats good!

Why am I suddenly reminded of John Cleese though? ("Not necessarily - I could be arguing in my spare time")

Just one slight niggle though - how might God decide whom to reveal himself to (as various people claim)? Is he purposely choosing people who wont be believed? He seems very keen for people to come to him and be discovered, and yet a tad too fond of only leaving vague and cryptic clues around the place. Yknow, like his sons face in a burrito and statues dispensing milk, etc.

He would choose to whom to reveal himself to based on those whom he knows will do right by his grace. God knows the whole you, the you that extends through time. He knows everything you do in one eternal now.

The whole point of being here is for us to be tempted by evils and show that we can be faithful to God.

Angels are there to show that it doesn't work if we are created to be with God from our beginning, knowing he exists. You could still fall away like Satan because of pride.

But if we are without knowledge of God and endure evil temptations and come to God we will not fall into pride like Satan when we are with God. We will have overcome the evils with the grace of God. We will know what it was like to be without God and what it is like for the grace of God to save us from darkness.

Satan did not know what it was like to be without God, but we will when we are in heaven.

BTW, when Jesus said wide are the gates of hell, that includes purgatory. So it doesn't mean that most go to hell forever. It means that most will still need purification by purgatory. If you happen to die without faith, you might still make it. Hold on to any faith you might have and be as good as you can with the knowledge and ability you have.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #77]

Remember what I asked prior.... How in the heck does someone prove that something cannot happen? But I guess I'm still caught up in the web of trying to prove a negative here... Go figure....

It is not about you proving God doesn't answer prayers. Rather, I am offering a reason or reasons why if God exist it might not be pointless to pray.

If God doesn't exist, then yeah, it is probably pointless to pray.

(ME) Here's an idea, bring this relic to a children's cancer center, and let's let the healing begin. Oh, wait a minute, then we might start to think god exists. Nevermind.

This assumes God wills to heal everyone. There could be many reasons he does choose to such as we reap what we sow.

Here is something to consider. I was talking to a Catholic friend of mine about reincarnation. He said because purgatory is not in time, it is possible that reincarnation is part of purgatory. Those that still have not overcome evil by the grace of God are reincarnated to try again.

If this is the case, then it gives even more reason why so many are not healed because their suffering is part of their purgatory. The bible says you reap what you sow, so if you sow suffering then you reap suffering, and this would extend to purgatory.

So it could be that many people living on earth are actually living through their purgatory thus are not healed for they reap what they sow.

[Diagoras]

So it could be that

This is pretty much all you need to have a god do anything you like: supposition can cover all possibilities - however unlikely - up to and including moving in mysterious ways as the default position for anything else.

It could be that God determines whose prayers are answered based on quantum mechanics and the color of your socks. Who are we to say?