The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

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The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #1

Post by boatsnguitars »

Christian clergy and apologists claim that "All the Apostles died instead of recanting their belief in the Resurrection."

Josh McDowell ("More Than A Carpenter, Evidence Demands a Verdict") says,
"Even though they were crucified, stoned, stabbed, dragged, skinned and burned, every last apostle of Jesus proclaimed his resurrection until his dying breath, refusing to recant under pressure from the authorities. Therefore, their testimony is trustworthy and the resurrection is true."
Josh McDowell.

This is a demonstrable lie.

Sean McDowell, son of Josh McDowell, says:
If you have followed popularlevel arguments for the resurrection (or ever heard a sermon on the apostles), youve likely heard this argument. Growing up I heard it regularly and found it quite convincing. After all, why would the apostles of Jesus have died for their faith if it werent true?

Yet the question was always in the back of my mind how do we really know they died as martyrs?
(Note, he was told that lie by his father.)

The claim that all of Jesus' disciples were killed for their unwavering belief in the resurrection is a popular and often-repeated narrative. However, this claim is not entirely accurate and is based on a limited understanding of the available historical evidence.

Firstly, it is important to note that the historical record of the disciples' deaths is sparse and often unreliable. Many of the accounts of the disciples' deaths were written years or even centuries after the events they describe, and some of them contain obvious embellishments and inaccuracies.

Furthermore, there is significant debate among historians about the veracity of these accounts. Some historians argue that the disciples' deaths are well-documented and reliable, while others argue that the available evidence is too thin and contradictory to draw any definitive conclusions.

Even assuming that the accounts of the disciples' deaths are accurate, it is not clear that they were all killed specifically because of their belief in the resurrection. Many of the disciples lived and died in relative obscurity, and there is little or no historical record of how or why they died.

For example, we know almost nothing about the deaths of most of the disciples, including James the Less, Thaddaeus, and Simon the Zealot. The accounts of the deaths of Peter and Paul are somewhat more reliable, but they provide no evidence that these disciples were specifically targeted for their belief in the resurrection.

Moreover, it is worth noting that many religious figures throughout history have been persecuted and even killed for their beliefs. The fact that the disciples were killed for their beliefs does not necessarily make those beliefs true, nor does it provide any evidence for the resurrection itself.

In conclusion, while it is certainly possible that some or all of the disciples were killed for their beliefs, it is far from clear that this is the case. Furthermore, even if the accounts of the disciples' deaths are accurate, they do not provide any evidence for the resurrection itself. Therefore, the claim that the disciples were all killed for their belief in the resurrection is a problematic and oversimplified narrative that should be approached with caution.

1. To what extent do the deaths of the apostles prove the veracity of the resurrection story?
2. Can we trust the accounts of the apostles' deaths as historically accurate, or are they subject to bias and myth-making?
3. Is it possible for someone to be so convinced of a belief that they are willing to die for it, even if the belief is not true?
4. How do we reconcile the apostles' willingness to die for their belief in the resurrection with similar accounts of martyrs in other religions?
5. Do contemporary Christians have a responsibility to question the historical accuracy of their religious texts and teachings, or is faith sufficient?
6. If the clergy is lying so easily about this, what are we to believe about their other claims?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #71

Post by The Tanager »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #70]

It would miss the point you want to talk about if those words were meant to address that point. They werent. I havent claimed here that the resurrection happened. Therefore, Im not supporting it with my responses. Ive claimed two things. One, the "apostles made up the resurrection theory" is not well supported. Two, the person who claims the dead definitely stay dead (not, "we have no reason to believe the dead Jesus didnt stay dead on this occasion) has to support that claim if they want to be rational. If you want to respond to my posts, then they should address those two claims.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #72

Post by POI »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 1:01 pm Okay, so lets try to say this in a different way. I did not claim here that dead bodies can return to life.
You don't necessarily have to... However, when you own the Christian badge, this is the claim you hold, by default. (i.e.) Jesus, Lazarus, and the zombies, did rise.
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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #73

Post by POI »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 11:18 am
Clownboat wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:14 pmSeriously? Please tell me you are not actually going to believe the unicorn/fairy story until someone provides evidence that neither are real!
POI wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 5:06 pm
The Tanager wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 7:51 pm do you have evidence that a supernatural resurrection didnt happen?
Or..... Do you have evidence that Muhammad did not fly to heaven on a white horse, supernaturally?

Or.... Do you have evidence Lord Xenu did not drop billions of souls into earthly volcanos, supernaturally?
No. And you shouldnt believe in the supernatural resurrection until you see evidence that such is real. Saying you dont believe the supernatural resurrection claim is different then claiming that it definitely didnt happen. You did the latter. You have no burden on the first, but you have the burden on the second. I have not claimed in this thread that the supernatural resurrection occurred. You both are claiming that dead bodies cant come back to life supernaturally. So support your claim or clarify you were making the weaker claim of "I see no reason to believe the resurrection happened."
"I see no reason to believe in Santa Claus". But I guess I cannot make the stronger claim, that Santa Claus, (who places presents under children's Xmas trees), doesn't happen. That would be ludicrous. :approve:
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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #74

Post by The Tanager »

POI wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:38 pm"I see no reason to believe in Santa Claus". But I guess I cannot make the stronger claim, that Santa Claus, (who places presents under children's Xmas trees), doesn't happen. That would be ludicrous. :approve:
No, you can make and defend the stronger claim that Santa Claus doesn't happen. You'd have loads of evidence of parents doing it, histories of the Santa Claus stories being made up, and all of that. Why is that ludicrous?
POI wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:00 pmYou don't necessarily have to... However, when you own the Christian badge, this is the claim you hold, by default. (i.e.) Jesus, Lazarus, and the zombies, did or did not happen?
Isn't everyone allowed to talk about the beliefs and claims they want to? Or must we all defend every single belief we hold if someone wants to take the discussion that way? I've had the resurrection discussion many times. I'll have more of them in the future. This thread was having a much more focused discussion that I wanted to have.

I'm also currently in a thread "Who Made God?" currently organized by a six question format that would eventually touch on the resurrection, if you want to hear my thoughts on that, although it would be part of the sixth question, so you may not want to have the previous ones. Boatsnguitars has settled upon a philosophical claim that philosophical claims aren't worth talking about, so you can step in if you want.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #75

Post by POI »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 11:20 am
POI wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 5:28 pm
Why is extreme skepticism the default?
Claim #1: Jesus was placed on a cross and died. He was buried.
Claim #2. Jesus was placed on a cross and died. He was buried. He later resurrected supernaturally.

By default, do claims 1 and 2 carry the same level of skepticism?
No. I didn't claim they did. Don't warp the context. Bng claimed the default is skepticism rather than agnosticism. Do you agree with Bng? If so, why?
I did no such thing. The claim is a risen Jesus. I'd say this claim warrants much more default skepticism, verses if you claimed Jesus merely was executed.
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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #76

Post by POI »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:42 pm
POI wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:38 pm"I see no reason to believe in Santa Claus". But I guess I cannot make the stronger claim, that Santa Claus, (who places presents under children's Xmas trees), doesn't happen. That would be ludicrous. :approve:
No, you can make and defend the stronger claim that Santa Claus doesn't happen. You'd have loads of evidence of parents doing it, histories of the Santa Claus stories being made up, and all of that. Why is that ludicrous?
Then I can do the same things with Jesus too. We have loads of unanswered prayer, despite what the Bible claims. And in regard to 'histories of a risen Jesus being made up', we can't find resources, (outside the Bible itself), attesting to such a thing?
The Tanager wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:42 pm
POI wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:00 pmYou don't necessarily have to... However, when you own the Christian badge, this is the claim you hold, by default. (i.e.) Jesus, Lazarus, and the zombies, did or did not happen?
Isn't everyone allowed to talk about the beliefs and claims they want to? Or must we all defend every single belief we hold if someone wants to take the discussion that way? I've had the resurrection discussion many times. I'll have more of them in the future. This thread was having a much more focused discussion that I wanted to have.
No, I'm saying you claim a risen Jesus happened, because you are a "Christian". The ones who are not Christians would think the following:

a) he rose but is not the Messiah -- (maybe like an Orthodox Jew or a Muslim).
b) he did not rise at all -- (let us count the reasons this storyline exists anyways).
c) I'm agnostic to the claim, just like I have to be about the countless other supernatural/god claims -- (in order for a theist not to paint me irrational).
The Tanager wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:42 pm I'm also currently in a thread "Who Made God?" currently organized by a six question format that would eventually touch on the resurrection, if you want to hear my thoughts on that, although it would be part of the sixth question, so you may not want to have the previous ones. Boatsnguitars has settled upon a philosophical claim that philosophical claims aren't worth talking about, so you can step in if you want.
I have two threads still waiting for you. You are a busy boy, defending your claims and all :)
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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #77

Post by The Tanager »

POI wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:03 pmThen I can do the same things with Jesus too. We have loads of unanswered prayer, despite what the Bible claims. And in regard to 'histories of a risen Jesus being made up', we can't find resources, (outside the Bible itself), attesting to such a thing?
Then support that case. Define what an unanswered prayer is and why it would show that Jesus didnt resurrect. And note the sources attesting to the risen Jesus being made up and why that shows Jesus didnt resurrect. Lay it out.
POI wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:03 pmNo, I'm saying you claim a risen Jesus happened, because you are a "Christian". The ones who are not Christians would think the following:
I didnt claim that here even though that is my belief. Must one defend any of their beliefs when someone wants to know why, no matter what discussion they were actually having?
POI wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:03 pmI have two threads still waiting for you. You are a busy boy, defending your claims and all
Which threads? You talked about possibly making one or two, but didnt tell me you did with a link. What thread(s) did that branch off of, too?

And, yes, Ill defend any claim I make and I wont expect people to defend claims they dont make, even if they believe in such a claim.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #78

Post by POI »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:17 pm
POI wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:03 pmThen I can do the same things with Jesus too. We have loads of unanswered prayer, despite what the Bible claims. And in regard to 'histories of a risen Jesus being made up', we can't find resources, (outside the Bible itself), attesting to such a thing?
Then support that case. Define what an unanswered prayer is and why it would show that Jesus didnt resurrect. And note the sources attesting to the risen Jesus being made up and why that shows Jesus didnt resurrect. Lay it out.
I'd be happy too. But first, your request Q is rising.... I have two other threads, for your participation, which I've been patiently awaiting....

Post 130 of viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39043&start=120

and....

viewtopic.php?t=41037

We can place this one third in line to the other two above, if you like :)
The Tanager wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:17 pm I didnt claim that here even though that is my belief. Must one defend any of their beliefs when someone wants to know why, no matter what discussion they were actually having?
No. My point being that if you are a "Christian", this is your 'cross to bear'. I'm making the point that regardless of whether or not you pronounce this claim out loud, the Christian badge asserts this very large claim.
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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #79

Post by The Tanager »

POI wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:30 pmI'd be happy too. But first, your request Q is rising.... I have two other threads, for your participation, which I've been patiently awaiting....

Post 130 of viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39043&start=120

and....

viewtopic.php?t=41037

We can place this one third in line to the other two above, if you like
I responded in the empty tomb thread. I prefer taking discussions one step at a time. As the empty tomb is one step in the larger discussion, we can build off of that into the wider claim, rather than doing them both at the same time. Or you can pursue that path through the "Who Made God?" thread.

Now, what about this "third in line" that you have claimed here? What is your support for your claim?
POI wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:30 pmNo. My point being that if you are a "Christian", this is your 'cross to bear'. I'm making the point that regardless of whether or not you pronounce this claim out loud, the Christian badge asserts this very large claim.
Yes, and its a very important claim to pursue. But its not the claim I pursued here.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #80

Post by POI »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 11:40 am What is your support for your claim?
Does Jesus fulfill prayer or not?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

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