Happy Anniversary?

[myth-one.com]

Today, June 20th 2009, is the eighth anniversary of the sacrifice Andrea Yates made for her children. Had she not murdered them, Noah would be 15 years old, John would be 13, Paul 11, Luke 10, and Mary would be 8. Instead, they were murdered by their mother so they would go immediately to live with God eternally in the paradise of heaven, thus avoiding the possibility of eternal torment in hellfire.

Is this a victory for Christianity?

[JLB32168]

So the Andrea Yates case is simply an anomaly which is being used to discredit Christianity and doesn't deserve further examination?

Correct. Basing an argument upon an extreme example is fallacious reasoning. Most of we Christians have only drowned one of our children, burnt one infidel, or hanged one heretic in our lifetimes [eyeroll]. It also pokes fun at her or casts her as a monster and exploiting the mentally ill to make nasty comments about others is no different than exploiting the brutal death of Madelyn Murray OHair as an example of Gods judgment on militant atheists.

[JLB32168]

Christian "theology" was used in this case by the murderer to justify the murder of her innocent children. That's a fact!

Secularism of the atheist variety has been used to justify the culling and reeducation (read extermination) of believers.

Is there a point?

[myth-one.com]

Christian "theology" was used in this case by the murderer to justify the murder of her innocent children. That's a fact!

Secularism of the atheist variety has been used to justify the culling and reeducation (read extermination) of believers.

Is there a point?

Yes, To my statement there is a point.

Is it a valid statement to claim that the five innocent children murdered in this case are now in Heaven with God eternally -- based on most present day Christian denominations?

[JLB32168]

Yes, To my statement there is a point.

I hope that the point is that people may use all manner of worldviews to do atrocious things; moreover, exploiting the tragedies of victims of severe mental illness, is crass and not a little abhorrent.

[myth-one.com]

Yes, To my statement there is a point.

I hope that the point is that people may use all manner of worldviews to do atrocious things; . . .

The idea that children who die in their innocent years go to Heaven for eternity -- is a widely held Christian view. It is not a worldview.

. . . moreover, exploiting the tragedies of victims of severe mental illness, is crass and not a little abhorrent.

What's abhorrent is that she used her "Christian" theology to justify the murders.

And even more abhorrent is that Christian pastors and theologians affirmed that she succeeded in sending her children to Heaven!!

Where do you think the Yates children are today?

[JLB32168]

The idea that children who die in their innocent years go to Heaven for eternity -- is a widely held Christian view. It is not a worldview.

Semantic Pedantics " if you must build a point upon such hairsplitting then the argument cannot be too strong.

What's abhorrent is that she used her "Christian" theology to justify the murders.

She was mentally ill for heaven's sake.

Many more parents have used the theology to comfort themselves when they tragically lose a child. I know of three people who miscarried who held onto that theology to get through the loss. I know of two elderly women who lived with the tragedy of abortion from their teenage years who finally overcame the guilt through the same theology. Why do you begrudge their coping mechanism (which you must.) Is it because its different from yours?? Do you think that everyone should think as you and w/o the slightest deviation therefrom?

Where do you think the Yates children are today?

In heaven " does it gall you to no end that I dont think their rotting corpses are mere worm food? It would seem that your answer would be Yes.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to JLB32168]

So the Andrea Yates case is simply an anomaly which is being used to discredit Christianity and doesn't deserve further examination?

Correct. Basing an argument upon an extreme example is fallacious reasoning. Most of we Christians have only drowned one of our children, burnt one infidel, or hanged one heretic in our lifetimes [eyeroll]. It also pokes fun at her or casts her as a monster and exploiting the mentally ill to make nasty comments about others is no different than exploiting the brutal death of Madelyn Murray OHair as an example of Gods judgment on militant atheists.

The argument being put forth here is that Andrea Yates simply took the religious beliefs which she had been indoctrinated into her whole life to their obvious conclusion. She concluded that the best way to save her children from the influence of evil which might eventually destroy their chances for going to heaven was to kill them while they were still young and innocent. A perfectly logical conclusion based on the theology that she had been indoctrinated into. Of course she knew that killing them was a forbidden sin, but it was a sin that she intended to take on herself while leaving the children innocent of sin. Again, a perfectly logical conclusion based on the religious reality that she had been indoctrinated into accepting as valid her entire life.

Is reaching this sort of an extreme conclusion an anomaly, or is it built right into religious belief itself? To be an anomaly, it must be something which has no history of happening. It must be out of the ordinary. And, granted most mothers do not routinely kill their child in order to "save" them.

WHY A FATHER KILLED HIS DAUGHTER WHO WAS "TOO WESTERN."
8 February 2011 Last updated at 04:09 GMT
Every year 5,000 so-called honour killings - when a family murders one of its own members - take place around the world.

One of the most notorious cases in the West was that of Hina Saleem, who was killed in Italy by her father who claimed she had become too western.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-12388801

This was a Muslim family. And Muslims are notorious for killing their own children for religious reasons. In fact Muslims have become just plain notorious for killing because of their religious indoctrination. So killing, even one's own children, for religious reasons is not an anomaly. It's quite common in fact, and always has been.

But is killing for religious reasons historically an anomaly among Christians? I already pointed out the history that Christians have of killing tens of thousands of women and girls for the crime of witchcraft, based on Exodus 22:18. Should killing tens of thousands of women and girls be consider an anomaly? Or is it taking religious belief to it's obvious conclusion. Because Exodus 22:18 specifically demands that witches be killed. Exodus 22:18 is not the only requirement to kill to be found in the bible.

Deut. 13:
[6] If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
[7] Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
[8] Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
[9] But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

Deuteronomy specifically requires the killing of one's own family members for the crime of not subscribing faithfully to their religious indoctrination. So should we find ourselves in total shock when people actually ACT on their religious programming?

Let's look a little further into Christian history.

Around 1173 a wealthy man gave away all of his possessions in an attempt to emulate Jesus. This began a movement known as the Waldensians, who took vows of poverty. By the next century this movement had grown large enough to induce the wrath of the Catholic church whom the Waldensians considered too rich and ostentatious to represent Jesus. The Waldensians were declared heritics. In 1209, under authority of the Pope, an army under the command of the Abbot of Citeaux, Arnaud Amalric, marched to the French town of Breziers, a known hotbed of Waldensian sentiment. Amalric promised the Bishop of Brizers that all good Catholics would be spared if they fled the town. Few towns people fled however. Instead they barricaded themselves in their churches.

Caesarius of Heisterbach wrote of the massacre:
"When they discovered, from the admissions of some of them, that there were Catholics mingled with the heretics they said to the abbot Sir, what shall we do, for we cannot distinguish between the faithful and the heretics. The abbot, like the others, was afraid that many, in fear of death, would pretend to be Catholics, and after their departure, would return to their heresy, and is said to have replied Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius - Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His (2 Tim. ii. 19) and so countless number in that town were slain."

2Tim.2:
[19] Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

And so there the justification for the actions which were taken is, built right into the belief itself. All that was required was a reason to take it to such an exteme conclusion. Which is what Andrea Yates did.

Amalric's own report to the Pope stated:

"While discussions were still going on with the barons about the release of those in the city who were deemed to be Catholics, the servants and other persons of low rank and unarmed attacked the city without waiting for orders from their leaders. To our amazement, crying "to arms, to arms!", within the space of two or three hours they crossed the ditches and the walls and Bziers was taken. Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_B%C3%A9ziers

Another anomaly? Well, not really.

By the sixteen century the Waldensians had become associated with the protestant reformation. In 1655 the Duke of Savoy prepared to exterminate all Waldensians once and for all. He ordered that his troops should be quartered in private homes in the heavily Waldensian Piedmont region. And then he ordered a general massacre.

Wikipedia
Waldensians
'Little children were torn from the arms of their mothers, clasped by their tiny feet, and their heads dashed against the rocks; or were held between two soldiers and their quivering limbs torn up by main force. Their mangled bodies were then thrown on the highways or fields, to be devoured by beasts. The sick and the aged were burned alive in their dwellings. Some had their hands and arms and legs lopped off, and fire applied to the severed parts to staunch the bleeding and prolong their suffering. Some were flayed alive, some were roasted alive, some disemboweled; or tied to trees in their own orchards, and their hearts cut out. Some were horribly mutilated, and of others the brains were boiled and eaten by these cannibals. Some were fastened down into the furrows of their own fields, and ploughed into the soil as men plough manure into it. Others were buried alive. Fathers were marched to death with the heads of their sons suspended round their necks. Parents were compelled to look on while their children were first outraged [raped], then massacred, before being themselves permitted to die."

This massacre became known as the Piedmont Easter. An estimate of some 1,700 Waldensians were slaughtered; the massacre was so brutal it aroused indignation throughout Europe. Protestant rulers in northern Europe offered sanctuary to the remaining Waldensians. Oliver Cromwell, then ruler in England, began petitioning on behalf of the Waldensians; writing letters, raising contributions, calling a general fast in England and threatening to send military forces to the rescue. The massacre prompted John Milton's famous poem on the Waldensians, "On the Late Massacre in Piedmont"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_M%C3%A9rindol

Yet ANOTHER anomaly?

Compare the account above with the JESUIT Extreme Oath of Induction, as recorded as part of the official record by the U.S. Congress in 1913.

JESUIT Extreme Oath of Induction
as recorded in the Journals of the 62D Congress, 3d Session of the U.S.
(House Calendar No. 397. Report No. 1523)
Congressional Record---House, 15 Feb. 1913, pp3215-3216



I_______________ , now in the presence of Almighty God, the blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles, St. Peter and St. Paul, and all the saints, sacred host of Heaven, and to you, my Ghostly Father, the superior general of the Society of Jesus, founded by St. Ignatius Loyoly, in the pontification of Paul the III, and continued to the present, do by the womb of the Virgin, the matrix of God, and the rod of Jesus Christ, declare and swear that His Holiness, the Pope, is Christ's vice regent and is the true and only head of the Catholic or Universal Church throughout the earth; and that by the virtue of the keys of binding and loosing given His Holiness by my Saviour, Jesus Christ, he hath power to depose heretical kings, princes, States, Commonwealths, and Governments and they may be safely destroyed. Therefore to the utmost of my power I will defend this doctrine and His Holiness's right and custom against all usurpers of the heretical or Protestant authority whatever, especially the Lutheran Church of Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway, and the now pretended authority and Church's of England and Scotland, and the branches of same now established in Ireland and on the continent of America and elsewhere and all adherents in regard that they may be usurped and heretical, opposing the sacred Mother Church of Rome. I do now denounce and disown any allegiance as due to any heretical king, prince or State, named Protestant or Liberal, or obedience to any of their laws, magistrates or officers. I do further declare that the doctrine of the Churches of England and Scotland of the Calvinists, Huguenots, and others of the name of Protestants or Masons to be damnable, and they themselves to be damned who will not forsake the same. I do further declare that I will help, assist, and advise all or any of His Holiness's agents, in any place where I should be, in Switzerland, Germany, Holland, Ireland or America, or in any other kingdom or territory I shall come to, and do my utmost to extirpate the heretical Protestant or Masonic doctrines and to destroy all their pretended powers, legal or otherwise. I do further promise and declare that, notwithstanding I am dispensed with to assume any religion heretical for the propagation of the Mother Church's interest; to keep secret and private all her agents counsels from time to time, as they intrust me, and not divulge, directly or indirectly, by word, writing or circumstances whatever, but to execute all that should be proposed, given in charge, or discovered unto me by you, my Ghostly Father, or any of this sacred order. I do further promise and declare that I will have no opinion or will of my own or any mental reservation whatever, even as a corpse or cadaver (perinde ac cadaver), but will unhesitatingly obey each and every command that I may receive from my superiors in the militia of the Pope and of Jesus Christ. That I will go to any part of the world whithersoever I may be sent, to the frozen regions north, jungles of India, to the centers of civilization of Europe, or to the wild haunts of the barbarous savages of America without murmuring or repining, and will be submissive in all things whatsoever is communicated to me. I do further promise and declare that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons, as I am directed to do, to extirpate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition, and that will hang, burn, waste, boil, flay, strangle, and bury alive these infamous heretics; rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women, and crush their infant's heads against the walls in order to annihilate their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly I will secretly use the poisonous cup, the strangulation cord, the steel of the poniard, or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity or authority of the persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agents of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Father of the Society of Jesus. In confirmation of which I hereby dedicate my life, soul, and all corporal powers, and with the dagger which I now receive I will subscribe my name written in my blood in testimony thereof; and should I prove false or weaken in my determination may my brethren and fellow soldiers of the militia of the Pope cut off my hands and feet and my throat from ear to ear, my belly opened and sulphur burned therein with all the punishment that can be inflicted upon me on earth and my soul shall be tortured by demons in eternal hell forever. That I will in voting always vote for a Knight of Columbus in preference to a Protestant, especially a Mason, and that I will leave my party so to do; that if two Catholics are on the ticket I will satisfy myself which is the better supporter of Mother Church and vote accordingly. That I will not deal with or employ a Protestant if in my power to deal with or employ a Catholic. That I will place Catholic girls in Protestant families that a weekly report may be made of the inner movements of the heretics. That I will provide myself with arms and ammunition that I may be in readiness when the word is passed, or I am commanded to defend the church either as an individual or with the militia of the Pope. All of which I,_______________, do swear by the blessed Trinity and blessed sacrament which I am now to receive to perform and on part to keep this my oath. In testimony hereof, I take this most holy and blessed sacrament of the Eucharist and witness the same further with my name written with the point of this dagger dipped in my own blood and seal in the face of this holy sacrament.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/ha ... uction.htm

These sorts of actions are NOT anomalies, in the same way that our current troubles with Muslim extremists are NOT anomalies. These are the results that living in a state of religious psychosis inevitably produce.

[1213]

Because, according to Exodus, God personally gave these commands to Moses.

Yeah, and I am not Moses. I am not even judge set by God, so I have no right by Bible to judge anyone. It is really simple matter and I dont really understand why I should think that I am Moses, or a judge that was over 2000 years ago set by God.

Or you can simply accept them as, well, more of a guideline then actual rules.

That is one of my favorite quotes from that movie.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 1 by myth-one.com]

Today, June 20th 2009, is the eighth anniversary of the sacrifice Andrea Yates made for her children. Had she not murdered them, Noah would be 15 years old, John would be 13, Paul 11, Luke 10, and Mary would be 8. Instead, they were murdered by their mother so they would go immediately to live with God eternally in the paradise of heaven, thus avoiding the possibility of eternal torment in hellfire.

Is this a victory for Christianity?

oh, low blow.

The answer is of course yes and no.

It's a terrible thing... Christianity is concerned with the well being of people. She was probably insane.

It's a great thing... Christianity is concerned with the soul. She was probably blessed by a vision.

It was a miracle and a curse and also everything in between.
Religious questions are subjective.

I have two kids. I can't imagine what she did.. but she did it. Some of the BLAME is religion, of course. But some of the blame is also HER INSANITY.

I think a lot of religious "visionaries" are insane.. maybe not so violent, but still.. we know about delusions now a days. There's no need to glorify mental illness any more.


And thank god for that.

[Blastcat]

Today, June 20th 2009, is the eighth anniversary of the sacrifice Andrea Yates made for her children. Had she not murdered them, Noah would be 15 years old, John would be 13, Paul 11, Luke 10, and Mary would be 8. Instead, they were murdered by their mother so they would go immediately to live with God eternally in the paradise of heaven, thus avoiding the possibility of eternal torment in hellfire.

Is this a victory for Christianity?

I dont see how it could be victory for Christianity. Bible doesnt give right to murder people, so the act was clearly against the will of God. Also it was not certain that those children would go to heaven if killed then. It may be that she murdered the children and they go directly to hell.

Yeah, because we all know how EVIL children really are... ooooh

I can't imagine killing my children for any reason, but I find it even MORE difficult to imagine sending them to HELL. Who would DO such a disgustingly monstrous thing?

GOD?