Christians, what would it take?

[Inigo Montoya]

What would have to happen for you Christians to abandon your beliefs in God, miracles, the accuracy of the Bible's stories, etc.?

We have a couple panentheists, at least one Muslim, and heaven knows what else frequenting this subforum; you folk feel free to chime in on your respective versions of "God/god" and apply the OP to it as you see fit.

On a personal note, I'm especially anxious to hear from Ted and FtK, Goose and BThread.

[Inigo Montoya]

[Replying to post 79 by liamconnor]

Liam I'm curious if you perhaps missed my question.

If indeed a natural explanation of the early Christian movement (tracing how we get from no Jesus to a Jesus as described in the N.T.) that satisfied basic historical criteria was presented to your satisfaction, are you saying you'd abandon belief in God?

It prompts an interesting follow-up. What is further demonstrated to you, historically speaking, by being persuaded a crucified man was later seen alive again? If that isn't your direct link to the belief in the existence of a god, what is?

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 77 by Claire Evans]

Oh, Claire, Claire, Claire.
How many times must you be told there was not a single Christian in Jesus' audience, only Jews and pagans, and ithe scenario is not the same.

Now I would like you to imagine you are a jealous god.
Imagine there is the man pretending to be a god, Caesar. (Or is a god, who am I to judge?) He is worshiped and a god and is empowered by a pantheon of gods.

These gods and their representative, Caesar, desire to be worshiped with graven idols, images of their own likeness, demonstrating their divinity.

Then there is someone claiming to be your son saying doing this, venerating these other gods is OK.

If you were a jealous god, what would you think?
Again, remember there were no Christians with your biased opinion back then.

See? Were Jesus a real saviour, he wouldn't do that.

My God is not a jealous God. He is not controlling. Using currency of Rome cannot be equated with worship. Let's be reasonable. People were required to pay their taxes so it belongs to Caesar. If I say let the the Muslims worship Allah, am I saying it is okay to say He is God? No, but what is it to me? Let them worship Allah. It doesn't interfere with my relationship with God. So giving to Caesar what belonged to Him did not interfere with the worship of God.

Do you believe that believers should not have paid their taxes?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 82 by Claire Evans]

Hi Claire - how many times must it be pointed out to you the importance about taxes is mis-direction?

It's all about debased, 'bout debased, no taxes!

Your god is not a jealous God, hmm.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, -Exodus 20:5

Using currency of Rome cannot be equated with worship.

Unless it is what the Gods of Rome desired. Yahweh wanted rams, Jove wanted graven images (coins) decrying his divinity. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Let's be reasonable. People were required to pay their taxes so it belongs to Caesar.

Let rephrase your reasonable statement to make it reflect a reality that the Jews would see.

Let's be reasonable. People were required to pay their taxes that belonged to the god Caesar. To do this, they'd have to acknowledge the divinity of Caesar and his pantheon. You see, at the time more people believed Caesar was a god, than even knew of Yahweh.
More people believed in Jove and Athena, and so on. The goddess Pax and the god Caesar were on their graven images - coins, telling all those who used them that their power, and the authority of their coins came from the Greco-Roman Gods.

Don't you see a problem yet?
Or are you still going to claim it was about not wanting to give up a little money? You must believe the Jews were completely irrational to fight, die, and be subject to the Diaspora, over a little money. Now to fight and suffer for their immortal souls, makes a little more sense, no? Or do you think the Jews were that stupid?

Let me make it blatantly obvious: If the money you used, lets make it a credit card -
If the contract you used to acquire your credit card stated you acknowledge that Satan was your divinity with each transaction, how often would you use that credit card?"

What if it is the only cash available?

Now you are going to say, "But I know that Satan isn't divine, so it doesn't count..." or some such.
and that is probably why the Bible says so few people are going to Heaven...

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 82 by Claire Evans]

Hi Claire - how many times must it be pointed out to you the importance about taxes is mis-direction?

It's all about debased, 'bout debased, no taxes!

Your god is not a jealous God, hmm.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, -Exodus 20:5

You assume Yahweh is my god. He is not. He is just a Canaanite deity who became the Israelite's leader. Yahweh is not the Father.

Using currency of Rome cannot be equated with worship.

Unless it is what the Gods of Rome desired. Yahweh wanted rams, Jove wanted graven images (coins) decrying his divinity. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Let's be reasonable. People were required to pay their taxes so it belongs to Caesar.

Let rephrase your reasonable statement to make it reflect a reality that the Jews would see.

Let's be reasonable. People were required to pay their taxes that belonged to the god Caesar. To do this, they'd have to acknowledge the divinity of Caesar and his pantheon. You see, at the time more people believed Caesar was a god, than even knew of Yahweh.
More people believed in Jove and Athena, and so on. The goddess Pax and the god Caesar were on their graven images - coins, telling all those who used them that their power, and the authority of their coins came from the Greco-Roman Gods.

Don't you see a problem yet?
Or are you still going to claim it was about not wanting to give up a little money? You must believe the Jews were completely irrational to fight, die, and be subject to the Diaspora, over a little money. Now to fight and suffer for their immortal souls, makes a little more sense, no? Or do you think the Jews were that stupid?

Jesus pointed out the Jews' hypocrisy by pointing out that they did not think dealing with Roman money was worship of Caesar. They bought and sold with this Roman currency and hoarding it. "But in paying tribute, suddenly they were servants of God, not of Caesar, and so the righteous thing was to refuse to pay." It was okay to acknowledge Caesar' conquering authority but not to pay taxes that belong to him. "

So this was proof that the Jews did not believe that dealing with the Roman coin was worshiping Caesar. Remember the Jews enjoyed benefits from the Roman empire.
"It was used for trade everywhere and benefited the economy of Judea The Jews enjoyed several benefits under Caesar: a reliable currency, good roads, public buildings, improved water supply, law and order, security and so on."

So give to Caesar what is due! How could the Jews pay temple tax without an economy?

Paul says:

1Pet2v13to15: Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.

And that is why the Jews went away silently because they knew Jesus was right.

Let me make it blatantly obvious: If the money you used, lets make it a credit card -
If the contract you used to acquire your credit card stated you acknowledge that Satan was your divinity with each transaction, how often would you use that credit card?"

What if it is the only cash available?

Now you are going to say, "But I know that Satan isn't divine, so it doesn't count..." or some such.
and that is probably why the Bible says so few people are going to Heaven...

The point is that the Jews were not acknowledging the coins as a form of worship or and acknowledgment of divinity as explained above. They dealt with the Caesar currency as well as the silver shekel without Caesar's face on.

Satan's currency will come but nothing good will come out of it. It's not merely handling currency but death if one doesn't take it. There will be forced worship.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 84 by Claire Evans]

Impossible conversation.
So you say give the God Caesar his due.
But you don't believe it was a sin.
And you don't believe Yahweh is another name for God.

Well, I suppose with made up things, you can believe anything you want, including contradictions.