Where is, and recognizing the devil

[nobspeople]

How can one recognize the devil?
"Be careful! Watch out for attacks from the devil, your great enemy. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for some victim to devour. Take a firm stand against him, and be strong in your faith" (I Peter 5:8-9)
There it's said he's a like a roaring lion, but here
"Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. So it is no wonder his servants can also do it by pretending to be godly ministers" (II Corinthians 11:14-15).
it says he can be like an angel of light.

So which is it? A roaring lion or light angel? Contradictory much? Or maybe, the devil can be both things, at which point we're right back to the first question, how can one recognize him.

"Humble yourselves before God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" (James 4:7).
This seems to say if you're humble before god, you can resist the devil and he will leave you. But it still doesn't say how to recognize him.
This:
"He was a murderer from the beginning and has always hated the truth. There is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).
doesn't seem to help recognizing him, either - just tells you what it claims the devil is.

Seems the devil is more of a spirit and less of a legitimate 'thing' (though some claim it's a very real person - see link below*, which seems odd to use the term 'person'), so maybe, to recognize it, when need to know where it lives today.
Pergamum was said to be “where the throne of Satan is” and “where Satan is dwelling.” (Revelation 2:13). However, some think this refers more to the satanic worship than an actual residence. Odd that god would let some think this and others think something else, but that's another story to address elsewhere.
The Bible says that the Devil rules over “all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth,” so he does not dwell in any one physical location on earth but is confined to the vicinity of the earth.​—(Luke 4:​5, 6).

For discussion: How does one recognize the devil? Or does that even matter? And where is the devil today?

* https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family ... the-devil/

[Diagoras]

Human religion is intolerant to change once the rules have been established, so they tend to stick with whatever devil they know.

Or think they know... some of the responses in this thread show that many of the Bible references to Satan, the Devil, a serpent, dragon, etc. are still being interpreted differently by different groups.

[William]

Human religion is intolerant to change once the rules have been established, so they tend to stick with whatever devil they know.

Or think they know...

"The Devil you know" used to say that it is better to deal with a difficult person or situation one knows than with a new person or situation that could be worse.

In this case, it is dealing with the belief one has - so it doesn't matter in that context whether what one believes is thought to be true.
The idea is to stick to one's guns by refusing to compromise or change, despite warranted criticism.

some of the responses in this thread show that many of the Bible references to Satan, the Devil, a serpent, dragon, etc. are still being interpreted differently by different groups.

That is not surprising since the biblical references themselves require interpretation.

[theophile]

Human religion is intolerant to change once the rules have been established, so they tend to stick with whatever devil they know.

Or think they know... some of the responses in this thread show that many of the Bible references to Satan, the Devil, a serpent, dragon, etc. are still being interpreted differently by different groups.

There are facts. We should focus on those.

Like, it is a fact that there is a serpent in Genesis 3. Whether that serpent is Satan is interpretation (and I would say incorrect, since there is no real basis in the text and it defies God's benediction of all animal-kind in Genesis 1).

It is also fact that in Revelation Satan is explicitly connected to "that ancient serpent," which is presumably the serpent of Genesis 3 (a bit of interpretation there, but a reasonable leap). So logically, while treating the serpent as Satan has problems (see above), there is something between them. My suggestion (and interpretation) is genealogy versus identity. God prophecies this in Genesis 3, i.e., enmity (which is what 'satan' means in biblical Hebrew...) between the serpent's offspring and humankind's...

So sure, interpreted differently by different groups. But there is an extensive fact base to work with, the above being two examples, that we can use with other intertextual references to make a strong logical case. (I wish we could focus discussions more on that versus full-blown and diverse interpretations that just confuse the whole matter.)

[Diagoras]

So sure, interpreted differently by different groups.

Agreed - I don't think anyone's yet claimed otherwise.

But there is an extensive fact base to work with, the above being two examples, that we can use with other intertextual references to make a strong logical case.

A strong logical case for how to recognise the Devil? I thought the debate (at least initially) was around whether that was possible or not, so let's get that up there for critique.

By way of a slight tangent, here's an interesting short thread from a long time ago on this board: viewtopic.php?p=18630#p18630

It's asking about whether prayers to Satan can be heard and answered. I was intrigued to read that one poster believed there to be Scripture which backed up the claim that Satan could, and did.

[theophile]

But there is an extensive fact base to work with, the above being two examples, that we can use with other intertextual references to make a strong logical case.

A strong logical case for how to recognise the Devil? I thought the debate (at least initially) was around whether that was possible or not, so let's get that up there for critique.

How can we recognize the satanic if we don't know what we're looking for? To your point, we've got a wide range of interpretations flying around, so we should stick to the facts and any inferences we can make from them. Develop a basic, fact-based view first and then ask the question.

[William]

[Replying to theophile in post #83]

[c.php?p=1069373#p1069373]Replying to theophile in post #83]

There are facts. We should focus on those.

Okay - facts are great.

Like, it is a fact that there is a serpent in Genesis 3.

Well it is a fact that the story tells us this. We should be able to agree that it is not a fact that The Garden of Eden actually existed, thus the characters in the story may be fictitious.

So it is a fact that this "Serpent" is in the story under examination.

Whether that serpent is Satan is interpretation (and I would say incorrect, since there is no real basis in the text and it defies God's benediction of all animal-kind in Genesis 1).

The fact about one having to interpret something which may be fiction, lends itself to supporting the probability that we might be dealing with fiction.
This is because facts speak for themselves, which is to say, they require no interpretation. They is what they is.

With that in mind, and treating the Source-Story as largely a work of fiction, we can look at the fact of the story itself, and agree re the different Personalities of the Characters within The Story.

It is also fact that in Revelation Satan is explicitly connected to "that ancient serpent," which is presumably the serpent of Genesis 3 (a bit of interpretation there, but a reasonable leap).

Are we thus to agree that

1: with any fictional story which requires interpretation, we can take reasonable jumps to conclusions as long as we follow the story-line as presented?
Further to that,

2: shall we agree that it is reasonable - since the fiction was written within the structure of the fact of the universe it was written within - that if the story does not align with universe, it is most likely the story is using fiction to possibly misrepresent fact?

So logically, while treating the serpent as Satan has problems (see above), there is something between them. My suggestion (and interpretation) is genealogy versus identity. God prophecies this in Genesis 3, i.e., enmity (which is what 'satan' means in biblical Hebrew...) between the serpent's offspring and humankind's...

How do I know that what you write above, isn't fiction?

The answer is that I have to check for facts -
6:12
Search - "What does Satan mean in Hebrew"

The Hebrew word satan [f’f] means “an adversary, one who resists.”. It is translated as “Satan” eighteen times in the Old Testament, fourteen of those occurrences being in Job 1-2, the others in 1 Chronicles 21:1 and Zechariah 3:1-2. There is some dispute as to whether it should be taken as a proper name or a title.
[SOURCE]

Enmity - a state or feeling of active opposition or hostility.
[6:13-ish]

We can agree that these match sufficiently to establish that the Personality of a Satan Character is whatever is in opposition to any other individual Character Personality....even if it is just a natural snake in the grass...if it is toxic to the human being - it is an enmity to the human being.

And an enmity is - in luxurious general terms - anything which can cause one to be harmed.

And while on that tangent, we can agree that the overall story - fictional or not - is about differentiating good harm from bad harm, in order to help identify the more invisible aspects of that thing which imposes itself into the affairs of Humankind.

Be it a "God" or a "Devil".

So sure, interpreted differently by different groups. But there is an extensive fact base to work with, the above being two examples, that we can use with other intertextual references to make a strong logical case. (I wish we could focus discussions more on that versus full-blown and diverse interpretations that just confuse the whole matter.)

Can we agree that a wish is like a prayer, only goes out to something other than a God?
But that a God might also hear and grant a wish, anyway?

What if the answer to said wish-prayer is in a God granting you, me? For I am in my element in regard to Intertextual References - therefore am a prime candidate...shall we proceed...

Facts:
Intertextual References = 267
The Need Determines the Value = 267
The Best way to access God is... = 267
[Check these facts for yourself SOURCE]

[William]

[Replying to William in post #86]
Premise:
"Develop a basic, fact-based view first and then ask the question."

The Garden of Eden = 131
Mother Earth = 131
Development = 131
The Power Of... = 131
Those Who Can = 131
Learn How to = 131
The Old Soul = 131
Heuristics = 131
Perseverance = 131
Golden nugget = 131
Connections = 131
Becoming whole = 131

Then the question I have re the facts is;

Q: Do all these things add up to the same thing?

Why I ask, is because there appear to be clues within the structure a human language, and clues which come from facts to do with Intertextual References, point to the formulation of ideas being had as to what the possible facts might be.

[William]

Premise:
"Develop a basic, fact-based view first and then ask the question."

The Serpent = 130
See the Signs = 130
All The World = 130
Big Gaps In Logic = 130
Our Species = 130
Destination = 130
Ars Notoria = 130
Television = 130
Realization = 130
God Eat Data Heal Cub = 130
Descriptive = 130
Practicing peace = 130

Adam and Eve = 70
Galaxy = 70
Secret = 70
Liminal = 70
Rarified = 70
Yahweh = 70

The God of The Garden Story = 259
Mysterious process = 259
The creator is the creation = 259
The way we feel unification = 259
Collective Unconscious = 259
The path to enlightenment = 259

Satan = 55
Watch = 55
Be Aware = 55
Trap = 55
Able To = 55
Less = 55
Move = 55

Lucifer = 74
Jesus
Queenbee
Lucifer
Habitual
Phasing
Between
Fine Line
In Detail
Beauty
Nailed it
According
Energy
English
Masonic
Gematria
Deep Space
Nuclear
Hexagon
Enchanted
About face
[all=74]

The Tree of Life = 134
The human brain
The game of Chess
Information
Breakthrough
Incorporate
Homo Sapiens
Unprecedented
The Ghost Agenda
[all=134]

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil = 327
Deciding On the Best Course of Action
Things Will Run Their Course
Coding the sound of spoken language
[all=327]


Now that these facts have been established, what conclusions can we jump to regarding the Intertextual References re The Story of Genesis - bearing in mind its relationship with the universe it has been written into and whether it is misrepresentation of the universe.

The Intertextual References strongly suggest - at least - that while the story may still be fiction, there appear to be facts hidden within the structure of said possible fiction.

eta:
The Devil = 85
Anunnaki
Presence
Fearless
Separate
Matrix
Original
Overall
Hide and Seek
Use Mind
Mind Games
Noetics
EELRIJUE
Above board
Mule Kick {Source}
[All=85]

[theophile]

Like, it is a fact that there is a serpent in Genesis 3.

Well it is a fact that the story tells us this. We should be able to agree that it is not a fact that The Garden of Eden actually existed, thus the characters in the story may be fictitious.

So it is a fact that this "Serpent" is in the story under examination.

I never said anything about outside of the story. I'm talking about textual facts. If we want to understand the satanic, we should go to the source, and that source is textual.

Whether that serpent is Satan is interpretation (and I would say incorrect, since there is no real basis in the text and it defies God's benediction of all animal-kind in Genesis 1).

The fact about one having to interpret something which may be fiction, lends itself to supporting the probability that we might be dealing with fiction.
This is because facts speak for themselves, which is to say, they require no interpretation. They is what they is.

With that in mind, and treating the Source-Story as largely a work of fiction, we can look at the fact of the story itself, and agree re the different Personalities of the Characters within The Story.

I think that's exactly what I'm saying. Let's use the facts that the text gives us to paint a picture of the satanic, so that we can then ask how we'd recognize it in the real world. (If it's even a thing at all.)

It is also fact that in Revelation Satan is explicitly connected to "that ancient serpent," which is presumably the serpent of Genesis 3 (a bit of interpretation there, but a reasonable leap).

Are we thus to agree that

1: with any fictional story which requires interpretation, we can take reasonable jumps to conclusions as long as we follow the story-line as presented?
Further to that,

2: shall we agree that it is reasonable - since the fiction was written within the structure of the fact of the universe it was written within - that if the story does not align with universe, it is most likely the story is using fiction to possibly misrepresent fact?

I'm good with 1 - so long as those reasonable jumps have a textual basis. And by "reasonable jump" I mean a small step versus a massive leap. Like, in the example I gave, a reasonable jump is that there is a connection between the serpent and Satan. Not that the serpent is Satan. Especially when other textual evidence goes against this view and other options are available to explain the connection.

I'm not sure where you're going with 2. Why would the writer want to misrepresent fact?

6:12
Search - "What does Satan mean in Hebrew"

The Hebrew word satan [f’f] means “an adversary, one who resists.”. It is translated as “Satan” eighteen times in the Old Testament, fourteen of those occurrences being in Job 1-2, the others in 1 Chronicles 21:1 and Zechariah 3:1-2. There is some dispute as to whether it should be taken as a proper name or a title.
[SOURCE]

Enmity - a state or feeling of active opposition or hostility.

I agree there is dispute on whether the word is referring to a character with a proper name, or a title / role. I think title / role is a safe bet. The word 'satan' is often (such as in Job) accompanied by the definite article, i.e., the satan. I'm not an expert, but I don't think biblical Hebrew has a clear convention like we do, e.g., capitalizing the word to indicate a proper name.

[6:13-ish]

We can agree that these match sufficiently to establish that the Personality of a Satan Character is whatever is in opposition to any other individual Character Personality....even if it is just a natural snake in the grass...if it is toxic to the human being - it is an enmity to the human being.

Correct. Which is basically what I posited way back where I summarized my view, i.e. bolded text:

You should recognize [the satanic in anything exhibiting the enmity that can result, in all the various forms this can take.

And while on that tangent, we can agree that the overall story - fictional or not - is about differentiating good harm from bad harm, in order to help identify the more invisible aspects of that thing which imposes itself into the affairs of Humankind.

Be it a "God" or a "Devil".

Umm, maybe? I think what Genesis 2-3 is about (in a nutshell) is a whole discussion on its own!

So sure, interpreted differently by different groups. But there is an extensive fact base to work with, the above being two examples, that we can use with other intertextual references to make a strong logical case. (I wish we could focus discussions more on that versus full-blown and diverse interpretations that just confuse the whole matter.)

Can we agree that a wish is like a prayer, only goes out to something other than a God?
But that a God might also hear and grant a wish, anyway?

What if the answer to said wish-prayer is in a God granting you, me? For I am in my element in regard to Intertextual References - therefore am a prime candidate...shall we proceed...

Facts:
Intertextual References = 267
The Need Determines the Value = 267
The Best way to access God is... = 267
[Check these facts for yourself SOURCE]

Hey, whatever gets us to better discourse. All for it

[William]

[Replying to theophile in post #89]

2: shall we agree that it is reasonable - since the fiction was written within the structure of the fact of the universe it was written within - that if the story does not align with universe, it is most likely the story is using fiction to possibly misrepresent fact?

I'm not sure where you're going with 2. Why would the writer want to misrepresent fact?

The writer may be 100% sure that the way he interprets the creation of the universe is not a misrepresentation.
This does not mean to say that we in todays world cannot check the script for inaccuracy which could account for any misrepresentation.

What if the answer to said wish-prayer is in a God granting you, me? For I am in my element in regard to Intertextual References - therefore am a prime candidate...shall we proceed...

Facts:
Intertextual References = 267
The Need Determines the Value = 267
The Best way to access God is... = 267
[Check these facts for yourself SOURCE]

Hey, whatever gets us to better discourse. All for it

Okay. Well I have offered the first round of facts [see post#88 too] as evidence and placed these onto the table of discussion.

That is my side of this discourse. I await your reply before proceeding, if indeed it is your intention to have discourse.