suffering servant = Messiah = Jesus!

[Metacrock]

Can we demonstrate that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is Jesus?

(1) we can demosntrate that he is the Messiah and not just Israel

(2) we can demonstrate that it fits Jesus better than anyone else.


by saying ss is not Isreael I am not excluding the possiblity that since Messiah comes out of Israel that it is both Isreal and an idnivudal person called "Messiah."



I. close reading of chatper will follow.



II. Messiah Will be Light to the Gentiles


A. Israel's Original Mission.


B. Israel cannot accomplish its mission without Messiah.


Messiah is contrasted with wayward Israel in several places Isaiah. Is 50:1-3 "Where is your mother's cirtificate of divorce withwhich I sent her away? OR to which of my creditors did I sell you? Becasue of your sins you were sold, because of your transgressions your mother was sent away....do I lack the strength to rescue you?

To which Messiah responds "...I have not been rebellious, I have not drawn back..." (v5)


1) Messiah to be covenant for Israel

"will keep you," God tells the Messiah "and will make you to be a covenant for the land." (Is 49:8-


2) Messiah to bring Israel back to God


Is 49:5

And now says the Lord, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the Lord, And My God is My strength)

C. Messiah to bring Israel back AND be light to Gentiles.

49:6

He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."



D. What the Sevant does in 53 is exactly

what the book says Messiah will do.


1) Messaih emerges out of Israel

Is 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

"My witnesses" is plural, "My servant" is signular. The servant is part of the witnesses, coming out of Israel, produced by the line of David. Edersheim documents that Rabbical authorites recognize this verse as pertianing to Messiah.



2) Messiah rejected

Is. 50:6 "I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard, I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting..." And we see a rejected servant in 53, a "man of sarrows accounted with greif." This is one who "was despised and rejected."


3) Messiah accomplishes his task

Is 41:4


"here is my servant whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight, I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring jutsice to the nations." Or chater 11: 1 which is clearly marked out as the Messiah: "A shoot will come up from the stump of Jessey; from his roots a branch will bear fruit...(4) but with rigtheousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decsions for the poor...(10) in that day the root of Jessey will stand as a banner for the people, the nations will raly to him and his place of rest will be glorious."


Is, 42:6 (established as Messiah on previous page) "I will keep you and make you to be a covenat for the people and a light for the gentiles."

Compare: "(2)" He grew up before him like a tener shoot, and like a root out of dry ground....(12) "because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the trasngressors. For he bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors."


We see that clearly throughout the book of Isiah, Israel is in no shape to be a redeemer, but itself must be redeemed. It cannot be a light to the nations without one from among it's people, Messiah, brining it back to God. In that process Messiah will be a light to the Gentiles, and the covenant for the land. Chapter 11 sasy explicitly that Messiah (the Branch) will do do this, he will be the light to the gentiles. And that is just what we see happening in 53, the servant is marked by the same, or close epithet, Branch, shoot, and is redeeming many. In fact in 52 we see that he will draw the nations to himself. This chapter (53) fits everything it says about Messiah, his mission, and his function, it does not fit anything about Israel.


III. The functin of the Passage in the overall book (s) of Isaiah.



A. Dialectical pattern of the book


1) God condemns Israel for waywardness

2) God calls Israel back and encourages her to be faithful.

3) The Messiah as Intsurment of God's plan

punctuates the pattern of dialogue



B. Chapter 53 as Crucial pivot in God's plan


1) Servant takes the rap for the many and redeems


2) After 53 Israel is seen in the blessed Kingdom in peace and prosterity.


3) The Servant's work as redeemed Israel.

The editor/redactor has placed this passage in the central location. After all the interwoven messages of confonfation and comfort, punctuated by expecations of the Messiah as redeemer, the suffering servant takes the balme for transgressions, it punished on behalf of the people, and than we see the people livng in the blessings of God . The editor used this passage as a means to express the hope and promise that as a result of the Lord's work Israel would return to God and live in peace and abanundance. Although the edtor probably invisioned this as looking forward to the return form exile, the work of Messiah in accmplishing redeemption, it does not necessarily mean that it refurs to a chronological event in that day priror to return from exile. But it looks forward to an event that would transpire at some point in the futre.


C. Israel as redeemer of Itself and others doesn't fit the pivital function.

There is no sense of how Israel was redeemed. Without the work of the SS being that of Messiah the work is incomplete. Irael would go from being wayward and weak to suddenly being strong enough to serve as suffering redeemer with no sense of how it got there and the interwoven strands of Messianich promise for this function would just be loose ends that are never tired up.

Note: this view works even better if one is determined to see the final chapters as eschatological (end times, Messianich Kingdom).

[einstein]

OK. So Deutero-Isaiah is writing this around mid 6th century BCE and the "report" in essence, is that Jesus is the Messiah?

[Metacrock]

OK. So Deutero-Isaiah is writing this around mid 6th century BCE and the "report" in essence, is that Jesus is the Messiah?

don't you remember me saying he probably had no idea who he was writting about? They give a range of criteria "this is what Messiah will be like" and Jesus fulfilled better than anyone.

Now why Jesus? ever think of that? Because that's what people who saw him saw. they saw the messaih. He fits it. so they said "that's got to be him."

[einstein]

Ok. I think I understand your perspective. So what is your exegetical explanation of the significance of the first question:Who has believed our report?

[Metacrock]

Ok. I think I understand your perspective. So what is your exegetical explanation of the significance of the first question:Who has believed our report?

well he's saying "most people aren't going to get this. this will not be popular. the faituful few will get it, no one else." that's what happeend the Jews rejected it but the few heterodox Jews around Jesus were faithful and understood.

[einstein]

And what would your explanation be wrt to the second question: and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

[Metacrock]

And what would your explanation be wrt to the second question: and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Arm of the Lord means strength, power, most of all protection. So it's revealed to the those whom God rescues. In this case the faithful, those who follow Messiah. In reality those who follow Jesus.

[einstein]

So from your perspective Deutero-Isaiah is giving prophecy about some unknown entiity and is stating that the criteria given in this "report" correlate best with Jesus, and further, few people will believe or "get" this report. You further posit that the "arm of the Lord" is reserved for those that follow Jesus.

Recognizing that nothing I say will convince someone with a closed mind like meta, I would like to present an alternate scenario for the open-minded in this forum.

As previously stated, there is only one entity definitively identified as the servant in Isaiah and that is Israel. The messiah is not definitively identified. Jesus is not definitively identified.

It makes little sense to say that the prophet would be questioning why so few would believe his "report" since the criteria in his "report" as interpreted in Christian bibles are antithetical to everything taught in the Tanakh by Moses and the prophets wrt human vicarious atonement. To put it more simply, if one accepts the story in the gospels, then one can say that people saw Jesus die, but you cannot state the people say Jesus die for the expiation of mankind's sins. That is Pauline doctrine and contrary to Torah.

Logically look at the flow of the text and remembering that chapter divisions are artificial modern inventions-

Is 52:9 Burst out in song, sing together O ruins of JERUSALEM,for the Lord has comforted His PEOPLE. He has redeemed JERUSALEM. (10) The Lord has revealed His holy arm to the eyes of all the nations and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of OUR God. (12) For not with haste shall YOU go forth and not in a fluury of flight shall you go , for the Lord goes before YOU and your rearguard is the God of ISRAEL.(13)BEHOLD,MY SERVANT SHALL PROSPER...

It's all part of the narrative flow in this chapter AND in chapter 54 and throughout the last 27 chapters of Isaiah ie the vindication of the previously degraded servant before the eyes of the nations.The themes are consistent. And the theme is part of the 53rd chapter as well, as common sense would dictate. The other alternative scenario is that the prophet has been describing an uplifting poem about the redemption and restoration of Israel and then all of a sudden out of the blue, starts talking about the messiah for 1 chapter, and then resumes the theme of the nation's vindication. If you want to believe that- go ahead. But at least consider the other possibility and weigh the credibility of the claims. More to come.

[Metacrock]

So from your perspective Deutero-Isaiah is giving prophecy about some unknown entiity and is stating that the criteria given in this "report" correlate best with Jesus, and further, few people will believe or "get" this report. You further posit that the "arm of the Lord" is reserved for those that follow Jesus.

No, I've said reperatedly he did not know whom he was talking about. why would have to know that? couldn't God give him those words to say? why would he have to understand them?

Now stop putting words in my mouth and trying to twist what I said. I did not say the protection of God is reserved for anyone and you I didn't. you are so dishonest.

Recognizing that nothing I say will convince someone with a closed mind like meta, I would like to present an alternate scenario for the open-minded in this forum.

how dare you! you liar I am reportting you! !biggot!!!!

As previously stated, there is only one entity definitively identified as the servant in Isaiah and that is Israel. The messiah is not definitively identified. Jesus is not definitively identified.

blantly a lie. it cannot be Israel it is imosible nad makes God a liar. throught the OT Israel is always waywand ir never redeems itself It alsways needs propehtst to be sent to it. you could see the servant as a prophet but they so hung up on thartnig Christantiy they cant' think of it.

the Isreal of isaiah is never srrong. and the most important thing it is cleary spoken of distinctly from the servant. the servant si told You are to redeem isiraeal so obvious they are not the same thing!


that is a totally bgus view point.

It makes little sense to say that the prophet would be questioning why so few would believe his "report" since the criteria in his "report" as interpreted in Christian bibles are antithetical to everything taught in the Tanakh by Moses and the prophets wrt human vicarious atonement.

that's the sillinest thing I've ever heard in my life. that assumes the prophet knows everything in the future, he Knows who Jesus will be who Jerry Fallwell will be who Pat Robertson will be what modern day America will be like. IT is not necesary that he even knew who jesus would be. He didn't have know anything about why he said the things he said. those words are from God he did not have to understand them!

It's also beging the question to assume that Christaniity says anything that Judaism can't accept.



To put it more simply, if one accepts the story in the gospels, then one can say that people saw Jesus die, but you cannot state the people say Jesus die for the expiation of mankind's sins. That is Pauline doctrine and contrary to Torah.


Of course! waht a silly argument. you could say the same thing about God and the ten commandments. we saw God give moses the tabliet but we didn't god looking particualrly Holy or moses looking especially upifted.

Logically look at the flow of the text and remembering that chapter divisions are artificial modern inventions-

that's the best argument agianst his view. it's not Isreal's turn to speak or be spoken to. 52 makes it clealry his talking about the servant redeeming Isreael and that Isreael cannot do anything for itself God is just pleading with them to have faith. that's absurd.

Is 52:9 Burst out in song, sing together O ruins of JERUSALEM,for the Lord has comforted His PEOPLE. He has redeemed JERUSALEM.

why would he redeem them if they didn't need it? look closely it says through the servant he redeems them. the Messiah. nothing precluded there.

(10) The Lord has revealed His holy arm to the eyes of all the nations and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of OUR God.

he hasn't done that with Israel. when the world looks at Isreael is sees two things, victims of oppression and they have become oppressors of others. we do not see redemption we dont 'see the strong we see weaklings crying for money all the time to save form their enmeies. there is never a time when the world has seen this. but it is has in chrisianty. christaintiy is all over the world in every nation most nations want to be known as chritian there are no non chritsians kings left in the world.

(12) For not with haste shall YOU go forth and not in a fluury of flight shall you go , for the Lord goes before YOU and your rearguard is the God of ISRAEL.(13)BEHOLD,MY SERVANT SHALL PROSPER...

because it gets redeemed by the Messiah

It's all part of the narrative flow in this chapter AND in chapter 54 and throughout the last 27 chapters of Isaiah ie the vindication of the previously degraded servant before the eyes of the nations.

this is bull. Iv'e direcly posted matieral that disproves this very ponit Iv'e posted several times the dialogue pattern that's what I call it from cahtper 49 t0 53 shows Isreal is wayword and falling away and sining and moving away from God. God is constantly trying to encournge them to come back the Messiah presents himself as the faithful servant who is not falling away, God lauds the Messaih and asks Isreal to accept him and be like him. follwo the pattern and you will see this guys' view is impossible.

The themes are consistent. And the theme is part of the 53rd chapter as well, as common sense would dictate. The other alternative scenario is that the prophet has been describing an uplifting poem about the redemption and restoration of Israel and then all of a sudden out of the blue, starts talking about the messiah for 1 chapter, and then resumes the theme of the nation's vindication. If you want to believe that- go ahead. But at least consider the other possibility and weigh the credibility of the claims. More to come.

he mises theme completely because he can't honest enough to admit that Isreael is wayword and the Messiah is sent to redeem it.


here it is again.


b) Is 43: 10


"You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." The context of the chapter certainly begins with the Lord addresing Israel. But in course of the address there is a change. "Is 43:10 the Targum renders 'My servant' by 'My servant the Messiah.'(Edersheim 126). But how could it say "so that you may know and believe me and know that I am he?" if it is speaking of the Messiah wouldn't he know? Sure, but it isn't just Messiah, but Messiah and Israel, since he is part of Israel. That phrase speaks to Israel.



c) 49:6


He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

The context clearly indicates it is the Messiah addressed. He is to redeem Israel and Jacob, and all the world. This is not Israel but the Messiah. The larger context of the chapter indicates an address to Israel, "you are my servant Israel in whom I will disply my splinder." But there is a distinction.The passage begins "before I was born the Lord called me" Israel is speaking. Israel personified goes to to procliam that he was unfaithful: "but I said 'I have labored to no purpose...yet what is due me is the Lord's hand and my reward is with God." The Servant Israel ceases dialogue for the moment at this point. Israel is no longer talking.

It goes on (v5)"and now the Lord says...he who formed me in the womb to bring Jacob back to him and gathered Israel to himself..." What's going on here? The Lord says this but is not speaking as the Lord, but as the servant, and the servant is not Israel, but is to redeem Israel. The servant than goes on to quote the Lord speaking to him and that is the quote above."It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel:

So clearly the Messiah is speaking at this point and the Messiah is the servant redeemer. Why Messiah and not Isaiah? Of 49:8 Edersheim writes "there is a remarkable in Yalkut on the passage, to the effect that the Messiah suffers in every age for the sins of that generation but aht god in the day of redemption will repair it all (Yalk ii p. 52b). (Ibid.) Moreover the words of freedom in 49:9 are attributed to Messiah."Is 49:9 is quoted as the words of the Messiah in Yalfut (vol. ii-p53b). We know this servant is Israel, he will do what Messiah is given to do.



2) Messiah as servant leading up to 53



a) 50: 10 possibility is prophet or Messiah


This verse at first glance appears to be the prophet or even Israel speaking. But let's look again. "Who is among you that fears the Lord, That obeys the voice of His servant, That walks in darkness and has no light? Let him trust in the name of the Lord and rely on his God"

Again the chapter starts out with servant Israel. By now we should see a patter here, because once again it shifts gears to someone else.. Sevant Israel has been unfaithful. "This is what the Lord says....'because of your sins you were sold...' And the Lord continues to speak in this vein, that Israel should trust him becaue he is powerful enough to deliver them from anything.

Then in v4 another voice says "the sorvign Lord has given me an instructed tounge, to know the word that sustains the weary..." This sounds as though it could be Isaiah, but it is not Israel for this voice is faithful "...I have not been rebellious, I have not drawn back, I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheacks to those who pulled out my beard..." (why does that sound familiar?) "I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting, because the soverign Lord helps me, I will not be disgraced"

The next verse is 50: 10 quoted above. Wheather this is Isaiah or the Messiah it is still not Israel. This is curical because it means that there is a dialectical reationship going on here. There is a jumping back and forth form Israel as the Servant to Messiah (and perhaps at times others such as Isiah).And we see this criss corss throguhout the book.



b) 52: 13


Behold, My servant will prosper, He will be high and lifted up, and greatly exalted.


Above I leave this one as a guess. But it must be the Messiah. In the interim between the last servant verse and this one, a lot is said. But by whom? Throughout chapter 51 the Prophet speaks the words of the Lord so interchangeably that it is impossible to tell who is talking most of the time, but the message is clear, God is the strenth of his people Israel if they will only trust in him and turn to him. v17 "Awake, Awake, rise up O Jersusalem you who have drunk from the hand of the Lord the cup of his wrath." Clearly, as throughout the book, and thoughout most of their history Israel is going astray and needs calling back. God comforts Israel "see I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger" (v22).

It continues on this way to Chapter 53. below is a table charting the flow of the dialogue.

starting with Chapter 50

50: 1-3 God scolds unfaithful Israel Starting with "Where is your mother's cirtificate of diverse...?"Do I lack the strength to resue you?"
50:4-11 the faithful servant contrasts with unfaithful Israel starting with "the Soverign Lord has given me an instructed tounge....I have not been rebellious I have not drawn back.
51:1-4 Prophet encourages Israel to follow and trust God. starting "listen to me, you who pursue righteousness and who seek the Lord; look to the rock..."
51:4-8 God speaks as an example of the prophet's message to Israel starts "LIsten tome my people,...
51:v9-11 Prophet evokes God "Awake, Awake,Clothe yourself with strength O arm of the Lord...Was it not you who dired up the sea...?"
51:12-16 God scolds Israel gently and offers comfort starts "I, even I am he who comforts you. Who are you that you fearmortal men...?"
51:17-22 rebukes Israel for their sin and ehorts them to turn to God "Awake, awke! Rise O Jerusalem, you who have sdrunk from the hnd of the Lord the cup of this wrath you hae drained to its dreggs the boglet that makes men stagger..."
51:22-23 God reiterates the message and offers encouragement, redeemption "See I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger...you will never drink again..."
52: 1-4 Prophet exhorts again Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength.Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem...."
52:4-6 God reiterates "At first my people went down to Egypt to live....my people have been taken away for nothing and those who rule them mock...therefore my people will know my name.
52:7-12 the prophet speaks of the messenger (Elijah?) "How beuatiful on the mountins are the feet of those that bring good news....but you will not leave in hates or go in flight; fort he Lord of Israel will be your rear guard."
52:14-15 God boasts of his servant "see my servant will act wisely he will re braisedup and lifted up and highly ealted. Just as there many who were appalled at him--...for what they were not told they will see, and what they have not heard they will understand."




B. The Proper fit--Suffering servant is Messiah!


The theme throughout the book is drawing Israel into trusting the Lord and turning form a state of oppression to one of triumph. This three stage dialectic continues throughout the book. The Prophet speaking for God, quoting God to demonstrate his points, calling Israel back to God, to trust and to righteousness, and the Messiah intersperssed. Messiah will redeem Israel, will be a covenant for Israel, will be a light to the nations, he is the covenant for Israel, but first he is a stumbling block to Israel and a contrast to their unfaithfulness.

So the skpetics would have us believe that suddenly, after this same patterns runs through the book, suddenly Israel is the righteous servant, even though the righteous one (Messiah) has already been contrasted with unfaithful Israel and is it bring Israel back, and instead Israel is the righteous one who will suffer for its own sins and those of humanity, and the Gentiles are saying "surely he took up our ifrimaty, ect." This view simpley does not fit. What is in keeping with the context of the whole book, espeicially leading to the context of chp.53 is that the Messiah is the redeemer and Israel is in need of redeemption.



1) Form what has been seen already
we know the servant is Messiah in chapter 53



a) Messiah appears many times.



b) Messiah chilhood to adult 9-11.



c) Messiah is servant

contrasted with Israel.



d) Messiah is Israel's redeemer



2) Rabbincal authorities recognized

the Messenger of 52: 7-12 as Elijha.


The importance of this point being that it is not servant Israel who bring good news, nor the messiah but Elijha. which is significant since Elijah was thought to herald the Messiah, as John the Baptist heralded Chrsit and was thought to be Elijha.



3) The servant of 52: 12-16

could be Israel or Messiah


It could be Israel having gotten its act togather, but is probably the Messiah. The announcement of the servant's final vindication is discussed before the actual work of the servant is described in chapter 53. If it is Israel in 52 this could simpley be due to the fact that as a result of the suffering servant, servant Israel will eventually triumph. But it makes more sense if it is all one servant, and since the contrast between the redeeming Messiah servant and servant Israel who stands in need of redeeption, it makes more sense to see this as the Messiah.



4) Objections to Messiah hypothosis


It will be objected that may phrases in these verses indicate that the Messiah servant is merely a man in need of God's help. For example 50: 7 "Because the soverign Lord helps me," the servant says "I will not be disgraced." If Jesus is truely the second person of the Godhead, how could he refur to a soverign Lord? How could he worry about disgrace? The answer is clear, The Logos became flesh; Jesus was a man. As such he was subordinate to God and required God's help. He "considered not equality with God a thing to be grasped but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant he became obident..." He became a man and as such was subject to God and possessed of human frailty and nee for God's strength.



C. Conclusion: Suffering servant
is Messiah and not Israel.


1) Following the dialogue patter it is time for the Messiah to again puncuate the message already developed by the Prophet speaking through God.


God and the prophet have woven a tapestry of the message, one which always brings in the Messiah as focual point of God's plan after the alternating waves of scolding, encouragement, and hope. Messiah is instrument of hope for Israel and for the Gentiles. At this point in the dialouge it is his time to be the focus.



2) The Role of Messiah fits the Role of the servant


Messiah is stumbling block and contrasted with fathless Israel, he suffers, (see above) before 53, and is the focus of God's plan of redeemption for Israel. Israle is never spoken of as it's own redeemption anywhere in the book, but is always the object of God's redeemping activity through Messiah. And here in 53 he is redeeming Israel despite their sense of him as smitten by God.


3) Messiah faithful servant


Messiah is the faithful servant in contrast to unfaithful Israel. But suddenly, they would have us believe, Israel is the redeemer of all mankind, faithful and strong and able to suffer on behalf of humanity. Now this is consistant with the promises of chapters 50-52 that they will be made so, but it is clear though those chapters that Messiah is pivitol in the plan to make Israel faithful and able to work for God, Israel is never seen as ready to fulfill this role already.



4) That Israel would fulfill it's destiny without the redeemption of Messiah is contrary to the theme of the whole book.


Despite the fact that eventual strength and triumph is promised for Israel this is accomplished through Messiah who is the covenant for Israel. Messiah brings Israel back to the Lord, Israel does not come back on its own. "And now says the Lord, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the Lord, And My God is My strength)" (49:5). The whole theme of the book is to trust God and not to trust in one's own strength. The attitudes, it will be seen, of the narrator of chapter 53 are much more consistant with Israel's attitude, and the role of the Servant of 53 with that of the Messiah thoughout the book.


Therefore, from the context of the book and the roles of Israel and Messiah, not to mention the order of dialogue patterns, the suffering servant is the Messiah!












[/quote]

[einstein]

Why don't you shut up for a change and let me finish instead of cut and pasting the same crap you have been posting for last 3 pages. This post is for OTHERS on this forum to consider. It's not for you -you Jew-hating bastard

[einstein]

And while I am it-learn how to spell moron.