Victims Silenced

[trencacloscas]

As said before, Christians have poisoned the debate about religion by passing off the concept that religious claims must be treated with a kinder and gentler type of criticism than that leveled at other types of belief systems. But what about the people that was infected with this hellish doctrine, harassed with its symbols, pestered with the absurd and dogmatism from the very cradle?

Most ex-Christians who just want to express their opinion on the subject plainly, and intend to expose forward the nonsense of this religion from their personal experience, are often diminished and censored on the basis that they offend religious people. Like Jews would offend nazis for attacking nazi's doctrine, right?

Lots of people chastised, their natural instincs abnormally refrained, their guilt excited beyond the limits of paranoia, their hunger for knowledge, curiosity or study denied, and the big etcetera...

So, where is exactly the breaking point? Why the "politically correct" tag goes always against victims? Should victims of Christianity be allowed any extra rights to react towards their executioner religion?

[otseng]

So, where is exactly the breaking point? Why the "politically correct" tag goes always against victims? Should victims of Christianity be allowed any extra rights to react towards their executioner religion?

I can answer these questions in the context of this forum. In this forum, anything is permissible, as long as it follows the rules.

To be more specific, one of the main distinguishing characteristics of this forum is that all members are expected to civil and respectful. And this is taken seriously here. If one cannot be civil in the presentation of one's ideas, there are plenty of other forums which tolerate this.

This forum is not simply a place to vent one's feelings. This is a place for debate. To engage in debate, opposing sides must be willing to hear and consider the other side's arguments. If the discussions are uncivil, then it can quickly shut down the opposing sides from truly listening and consider the arguments.

Feel free to point out flaws in Christianity here. They are welcome and encouraged. But, you must also factually support your arguments or they will carry no weight.

As for answering the questions in the context of outside of this forum, I'll let others answer those.

[Overcomer]

As said before, Christians have poisoned the debate about religion by passing off the concept that religious claims must be treated with a kinder and gentler type of criticism than that leveled at other types of belief systems.

I'm not asking for kinder or gentler criticism for Christians or Christianity. I am asking for simple courtesy and respect, the same kind that I expect you yourself would like to receive, the kind that you don't seem to think you need to show to a Christian.

My point in the thread in which you mocked and insulted Christians was simply this: Everyone deserves to be treated with consideration and respect whether you agree with their beliefs or not. I stated clearly that if you insulted African-Americans or Jews in the way you insulted Christians, you would be considered a racist and an anti-Semite. Why do you think it's acceptable to be disrespectful to Christians just because they believe something that you don't? Or are you as mean-spirited toward African-Americans, Jews, etc. and treat them badly, too?

Most ex-Christians who just want to express their opinion on the subject plainly, and intend to expose forward the nonsense of this religion from their personal experience, are often diminished and censored on the basis that they offend religious people. Like Jews would offend nazis for attacking nazi's doctrine, right?

So now you are comparing Christians to Nazis, eh? Again, I repeat. You can express your opinions on Christianity and relate your personal experiences all you want, but in doing so, it's important that you are respectful and not rude and insulting.

Why the "politically correct" tag goes always against victims? Should victims of Christianity be allowed any extra rights to react towards their executioner religion?

This last statement reveals a lot. You consider yourself a victim of Christianity. And now you are a God-hater. What I see in your posts is overwhelming anger, bitterness, and hatred. It's like a poison that has spread through you.

I can only surmise that you grew up in a supposedly Christian home but were hurt greatly. People who were not in a relationship with Christ and not living and showing love the way that Christ did (and still does) disappointed and hurt you and now you think that Jesus and all Christians are bad and you are taking your revenge by being insulting and rude to them.

As I said to you in another thread, if a person calling himself an atheist molests five-year-olds, can I then assume that all atheists are pedophiles? Of course not. By the same token, if a person calling himself a Christian commits a heinous act, can you then deduce that ALL Christians are hateful? Because that's what you're doing. You're saying that ALL Christians are horrible, hateful people because some people who were false Christians have done things that were not Christ-like. And because you feel that way, what you write here is propelled by a passionate hate rather than a reasonable desire for intelligent discussion. Hate is an evil thing. It destroys whoever it has in its grip.

I know that people do awful things in the name of God. But I also know some people who have done wonderful things in the name of God, like Mother Theresa and David LIvingstone and William Wilberforce and Amy Carmichael just to name a few.

And I also know Jesus and I know his love and I know that he gave everything he had to show you and to show me how much he loves us. It's wrong to throw Jesus out just because some people calling themselves Christians were actually in the devil's employ and not following God's will at all. You only hurt yourself by doing that. It doesn't hurt me if you don't enter into a relationship with Jesus. It doesn't hurt the Church if you remain estranged from God. It only hurts you. And it strikes me you've already been hurt enough.

[trencacloscas]

Excuse me if I ignore most of your arguments, Overcomer, you assume a lot of things I didn't even mention. Just one simple question... why is it that when it comes to Christianity crimes, Christians are the last to admit them?

[youngborean]

As said before, Christians have poisoned the debate about religion by passing off the concept that religious claims must be treated with a kinder and gentler type of criticism than that leveled at other types of belief systems. But what about the people that was infected with this hellish doctrine, harassed with its symbols, pestered with the absurd and dogmatism from the very cradle?

Christians are commanded to look to Christ and no one else.

Hbr 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hbr 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Unfortunately, we tend to look to humans from the cradle. For many people raised in Christian homes it is a difficult process. But looking to Christ we can see that he has our best interests in mind and that he is beyond the mistakes that people make. If you can place absurdity and control on the person of Jesus, then you should share what about him (or how he is represented in the gospels) makes you so angry. All individuals have their own doctrine and they administer it in whatever way they can. Some are good at it and some just don't get it. The real question then becomes whether or not we can blame Jesus for the way Christians believe. If we cannot, which I would argue that we can't, then the argument that professed Christians have caused others pain doesn't say anything about the true message of Christ.

[trencacloscas]

the argument that professed Christians have caused others pain doesn't say anything about the true message of Christ.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. If Jesus knew the hell he was about to unleash on earth, then he was evil. If he didn't, he was no God at all. As we have no proof of the mere existence of Jesus, the blame is on his followers, who rarely took any responsibility for the crimes of Christianity, and in the end, on the whole phenomenon.

[Overcomer]

Excuse me if I ignore most of your arguments, Overcomer, you assume a lot of things I didn't even mention. Just one simple question... why is it that when it comes to Christianity crimes, Christians are the last to admit them?

First of all, I wasn't arguing with you. I was pointing out the need to treat people with respect. Are you telling me that you disagree with me about treating people with respect?

Secondly, I have never denied that things have been done in the name of God that are just awful. In fact, I stated that in other posts on this board. And you will find many Christians besides myself who are appalled at some of the things people calling themselves Christians do. It always seems like the media puts them on the front page with Christians who are doing good things not making the news at all. Please believe me when I say that those people are an embarrassment to us all and those of us who are trying to follow God's will have to do a lot of fence-mending because of them, like I am trying to do with you.

I have also stated elsewhere on this board that Christians are NOT perfect and they make mistakes. However, out of love for God and filled with the Holy Spirit, a TRUE Christian and not one who is a Christian in name only, is constantly working to become more Christ-like and manifest his love. In other words, we are all works-in-progress.

I do not deny dreadful things like the Inquisition. I don't know any Christian who does. However, again, I must point out the fact that anybody can call himself a Christian and so anything they want in the name of God without Jesus being any part of it or condoning it. Label it a "Christian" crime if you will. However, it's a crime committed by people calling themselves Christian. Therefore, I would call it a pseudo-Christian crime.

Now I ask you -- why is it that you refuse to acknowledge that not all Christians eat babies for breakfast and that some of them have actually been a blessing to the world? Where does that unfair bias come from?

[youngborean]

Well if we agree that the blame can be placed on his followers, then what about how he is presented in the NT is worth blame? I think it is perfectly fine to assume that the eyewitnesses of Jesus are lying and that he never existed, but it still has to be considered as evidence. I guess you would just call it bad evidence. So we have to examine the evidence, and say if people are behaving in a way that is against the tenents of Christ, then their negative actions are not a representation of Christianity at all. And therefore, their actions are unchristian. I have a hard time believe that the hell on earth began with Jesus, as many wars and massacres pre-date his coming.

[Overcomer]

the argument that professed Christians have caused others pain doesn't say anything about the true message of Christ.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. If Jesus knew the hell he was about to unleash on earth, then he was evil. If he didn't, he was no God at all. As we have no proof of the mere existence of Jesus, the blame is on his followers, who rarely took any responsibility for the crimes of Christianity, and in the end, on the whole phenomenon.

If you don't know Jesus, then you don't know what he's like. He may seem evil to you but until you have conversed with him, spent time with him, gotten to know him, you are only voicing an uninformed opinion. And how are you defining "God" when you say Jesus was no God at all. God may not be who you want him to be, but he IS exactly who you and I and everybody else need him to be.

Secondly, the debate about why God allows evil has to do with his desire that we love him freely, by choice, not as robots programmed to do so. True love is given by choice. And if God offers us a choice to love him, then he also offers us a choice NOT to love him.

God has clearly established the rules of the game. He tells us to do as he asks out of love for him. He wants only what is best for us. Therefore, when he says, "Don't do this", he is saying, "Don't do this because it will hurt you."

If a person chooses NOT to do as God asks, then he chooses to bring hurt upon himself. I constantly see people trying to blame God for their own poor choices. People need to take responsbility for themselves and for their actions.

Jesus came to earth to die on the cross so that no one would have to perish but could have eternal life in heaven. He didn't have to do that. He chose to do it out of love. Again, there's that choice about acting out of love. It's the same choice God has given us.

I can tell you that you will never experience love from another human being like the love that Jesus pours out. It's wonderful, beyond anything you could ever imagine or I could even begin to describe.

Also, there is indeed proof for Christ's existence, not just that provided in the Bible, but in a number of non-Christian sources as well including the Jewish historian, Josephus, the Roman emperor Hadrian, Roman officials such as Pliny and others. Among historians, including non-Christians ones, there is no doubt that Jesus was a real person. They may question exactly who he was and what he did, but they don't doubt his existence on earth.

Here is a link to a site with a short synopsis of a dozen sources that talk about the person of Jesus:

http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/hist/main.html

P.S. For youngborean: I like what you wrote. You're bang on!

[trencacloscas]

First of all, I wasn't arguing with you. I was pointing out the need to treat people with respect. Are you telling me that you disagree with me about treating people with respect?

OK. I understand the previous topic annoyed you. Sorry, perhaps it wasn't the best of ideas. But once again and with due respect, the symptons mentioned are real. Christians never assume the consecuences of the influence of Christian religion on people, neither want to talk about them. And as I said, I've seen friends and relatives transformed in zombies by religion, perhaps I myself was a zombie once. I intended to point that out, but maybe not in the most polite of ways, surely.

Secondly, I have never denied that things have been done in the name of God that are just awful. In fact, I stated that in other posts on this board. And you will find many Christians besides myself who are appalled at some of the things people calling themselves Christians do. It always seems like the media puts them on the front page with Christians who are doing good things not making the news at all. Please believe me when I say that those people are an embarrassment to us all and those of us who are trying to follow God's will have to do a lot of fence-mending because of them, like I am trying to do with you.

Yes, you never denied. Perhaps you neither affirmed. The speakers for the monstrosities of Christianity are rarely Christians. I've been one and I know that everything bad in Christian history is shamelessly swept under the carpet. Christians chastise their flesh for their sins and cry for a single guy nailed to a cross, but the millions killed, tortured and denied by their hideous sect during seventeen centuries are not mentioned in their prayers, not mourned or even remembered. The late pope of the Catholics (after 17 centuries!!!) apologized for the crimes of his church without even describing them. All of a sudden, the whole Christianity assumed that, as in the sacrament of the confession, all sins were forgotten and disappeared by merely mentioning it. Now tell me hipocrisy is not the true mark of Christianity...